How many more killed babies do I have to hear about on the news before something gets done about these fighting dogs

[legscrossed]

I feel physically sick.

18 month old girl versus bull mastif.

Hideous

It absolutely petrifies me, we have a baby ourselves.

I don't know if any dogs are bred specifically to attack people (though some are trained to do so) but of course they are bred to attack living things. I didn't realise anyone had any doubt about that. Surely it was what most dogs were for at one time. Different sizes and shapes for different prey.

Yes dogs do generally tend to be able to distinguish between a toddler and rat

A lot of dogs were bred as 'game' dogs. So they were bred to hunt prey. Not to be aggressive.

Well the number of attacks on children suggests that their discretion is not as refined as you'd claim.

Are you not aware that some dogs are bred specifically for fighting? For bear baiting?

here you go

No the number of attacks does not suggest that. If that was the case then dogs would rampaging around parks tearing apart small children. This does not happen.

Almost exclusively the dog in question is the unlces, the grandmas, the brother in laws. Not a dog that has been raised around children. In the vast majority of cases the dog has been owned by someone as a 'status' dog, and arguably not cared for or trained properly. In many cases the dog has been left unattended with children.

The way to deal with this is definately not to ban yet more breeds. Surely it should be to disqualify certain people from owning dogs, i.e the sorts of people who would want a dog as a status symbol. And to train people how care for and train their dogs adequately. As well as educate the general public about children and dogs.

So many times I have been out with my own dog or my dads and had little Timmy bound up behind one the dogs are throw himself on them because his dad said he could pat the lovely doggy.

Yes they are bred for bear baiting and hunting and fighting other dogs. But that is not exactly breeding them to attack small children is it? Or show to agression to people.

Unless you are unlucky enough to resemble a bear?

Here from the Wiki link you provided about Akitas.

'Akita Inu are very good with children, and are often quite playful, although they should be watched around small children as they could knock them over during play.
The Akita Inu have a reputation for sometimes being aggressive towards smaller animals or other dogs, particularly those of the same sex. However they can live happily with other dogs and animals providing they are socialized well. They are excellent guard dogs and naturally protective of their home and family. The Akita Inu has a reputation for being an excellent house dog. They make great family dogs with the right training and socialization.'

You might be interested in the first sentence.

Other fighting breeds have a history of not being so good with children. And many of the dogs who have attacked children have frequently been around children, even the children they have attacked, and not shown signs of aggression.

The bull terrier is a typically aggressive dog. My parents had one when I was little. She was lovely. Until the day she pinned my sister to the ground and started growling in her face. They got her rehomed. I had my arm bitten by another bull terrier who had made a beeline for my crossbreed dog, and locked its jaws around his throat. My arm was bitten whilst I freed my dog before he died and my arm still bears the scar. My dog suffered two separate attacks after that, both by bull terriers. My ex boyfriend's dog also had to be taken to they vet for stitches after a bull terrier attack. So yes, there are breeds very prone, and bred for, aggression.

And LOL that a dog will discriminate between a bear and a human.

sorry, to clarify, my dog didn't die but the vet said he probably would have had we not freed him - the screams from my dog were almost human.

Bull Terriers are not naturally aggressive towards people. Nor can they lock their jaws. That is pyhsically impossible. In order to lock their jaws they would need to dislocate it, which would be incrediably painfull and who pops it back in again when they have finished savaging all the small children? Locking jaws are a myth. They do have strong jaws but they do not lock them.

Why lol to a dog that can distinguish between a bear and human? Dogs are intelligent creatures. You only need to look at rescue dogs to see that.

I didn't say they locked their jaws. So not sure why you're bringing that up.

I don't really need you to tell me that bull terriers are not naturally aggressive towards people when I have much evidence to the contrary, and so have others. Our bull terrier was loved and well looked after and turned, just like that, on my sister.

Obviously some dogs are v intelligent - for dogs. Dogs bred for bear baiting won't even have seen a bear in this country. So no, they'd have no idea what a bear looked like. And would not suddenly go beserk if shown a picture of a bear. The aggression and fighting genes though do not suddenly disappear in a different environment and do show themselves to humans, often.

Have wasted too much time on a ridiculous argument. If you seriously think there are no breeds which are bred for aggression, or that those breeds are not more likely to be aggressive to people then, well, words fail me.

I haven't got it to hand, but there was a Pet section in the Guardian Weekend a couple of weeks ago which had a fantastically unbiased piece on Staffordshire Bull Terriers.

It mentioned that an offshoot of their dreadful history of dog fighting has meant that the breed are incredibly good with people as the dogs which were not exceptional with people were not bred as they were no good and could not be handled in the ring.

I agree with whoever it was who said that thugs can get them to be dreadful to people after prolonged and excessive cruelty, such as getting their mates to come round and seriously beat the dog up.

Dreadful people. To such loyal and faithful dogs too.

Shiny, that did make me larf a lot when you said something like "unless you are unfortunate enough to look like a bear"

Of course dogs can distinguish bears and humans.

Last Updated: Thursday, 14 February 2008, 12:02 GMT
E-mail this to a friend Printable version
Ruff deal for the Staffie
Staffordshire bull terrier

By Fiona Wickham and Denise Winterman
BBC News Magazine

They're being dumped in record numbers and branded a "yob dog", yet Staffordshire bull terriers are ideal family pets, say experts. So why is this nation of dog lovers turning against them?

Extremely reliable, highly intelligent and affectionate, especially with children. It's not a description most of us would associate with Staffordshire bull terriers, but it's how the UK Kennel Club sums them up.

Some people think they've got themselves a fierce dog and in fact they'd far rather be in front of the fire having their tummy tickled
Breeder Veronica Brown

In fact, the breed is one of only two from over 190 it recommends as suitable with children, the other being a Chesapeake Bay retriever.

The whole piece is herenews.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7239464.stm

Never, ever have a dog whose mouth is bigger than your child's head.
Little dogs bite, sometimes a lot, but they can't usualy fit a whole head in

I do know some people who resemble bears

We all agree that certain types of people shouldnt have dogs, we all agree that certain dogs are potentially more dangerous because of their size and strength. We all agree that our children need protecting whilst in public places.

there seems to be a disagreement between those of us who want to apply some common sense to the argument, that is - the vast majority of dogs are not intrinsically agressive towards humans and that not all dog owners are irresponsible fuckwits who think that their dog is more important than children - that is a nonsense.

So, what are the choices?

A ban on the breeding of "aggresive" breeds - OK, i don't LIKE this but would accept it if i felt it would solve the problem, but where is the line drawn? Here is a list of breed that i would assume that some of the posters on here would have banned - i agree with some, certainly not all

German Shepherds - highly strung, powerful dog that can be over protective of owners
Rotweiller - large powerful dog with a history of "incident" Status dog.
All mastiff type dog - due to size and strength
Great danes - documented evidence of "harlequin" great danes being predisposed to severe aggression
Irish wolfhound - huge
deerhounds - huge
newfoudland - huge
St Bernard - huge
bull terrier
Staffie
labradors - well they are big and i've mest some nasty ones, they have the POTENTIAL to cause damage
Golden retreivers - again, large dog with potential
Poodles - because they look ridiculous
boxers - huge
italian spinones - huge
akita - this one should go
Alaskan malamute
husky - despite them being so lovely
pointer - well, they are hunting dogs after all
red setter - large dog
border collie - highly strung, nervous biters, working dogs not suited to being just a pet
cocker spaniels - documented evidence of "cocker rage"
Jack russels - history of aggresive behaviour with fatalities
Yorkshire terriers - bred to kill rats, dogs blatantly cant tell between rats and small children!
Actually any breed that ends in terrier.
Anything weighing over 20kg
No person should own more than one dog of any size as this promotes behaviour and dogs hunt in packs!
Chihauhuas - have been known to terrorise visiting clergy in our family.
Any dog of indeterminate breed lest there be any of the above breeds present.

I think that about covers it - we should only be able to own cavalier king charles spaniels which often have a congental heart defect that means they dont have the energy to inflict damage! Sorted - the mumsnet solution to the dog problems

Pofaced, did you faint because there is actually a breed of fighting dog most unlikely to be aggressive to humans?

LEM I have loved your approach on this thread (along with Shiny).

There seem to be 2 problems with banning breeds. One is enforcement. The second is something that another poster has already mentioned that the "thugs" in society will move onto another breed, which will be banned, and then another and another. It will never work.

It is the thugs who should be dealt with. Breed legislation does not work. I'll bet that most people who have said that certain breeds should be banned did not know that there are pitbulls legally living in this country today.

Maybe we should all stick to Whippets, lurchers and greyhounds
A neighbour down the road, lets her dogs run around by themselves (4 big dogs) and if they spot anyone walking around, the will give a howling bark and run at you growling.
Very scary, I try and avoid going out when they are running.
Thankfully, she only lets them out for 20 mins once or twice a day.
She is just TOO lazy to walk them herself

Thanks to those who have commended my ds.

I am exceptionally proud of him. he walked neighbours (fabulous - proud of this dog too) Border Collie right round the block with me a month ago.

Considering that this is a wee boy who had a blood transfusion of 2 pints and 2 operations including a plastic surgery one for scarring, following an unprovoked attack. He is a star!!!!

gosh weegiemum that's amazing. your brave ds.

'there seems to be a disagreement between those of us who want to apply some common sense to the argument, that is - the vast majority of dogs are not intrinsically agressive towards humans and that not all dog owners are irresponsible fuckwits who think that their dog is more important than children - that is a nonsense.'
Straw man argument.