Frankie Boyle on Down Syndrome - horrific

[Lymond]

interesting blog post from a mother of a DS daughter who was blasted by a 5-10 minute diatribe containing all the old stereotypes about people with DS at a Frakie Boyle show. I'm turning off any TV show he's on in future.

blog here

Grauniad article on it here

thanks riven you put it better than I could

Daftpunk - you don't think it is right to laugh at disabled children, but it is OK to laugh at jokes about them - have I got that right?

So if you saw Riven's daughter, you would be kind and sensitive enough not to laugh at her - but if another passer-by made a joke about her, you'd laugh at that - and somehow that is less offensive and more acceptable??

Or if you saw someone making fun of a child with DS, telling them they had a funny haircut and were going to die young, you'd laugh at the jokes they were telling - that is OK, is it?

Walk a mile in Riven's shoes - or even better, in her daughter's shoes - and you might find that your attitudes change somewhat.

From what I have seen on this thread, your attitudes seem offensive and unpleasant, and you seem utterly lacking in any form of empathy.

I'd agree with you to a point from a moral stance. What he says can be said to be part of a prevailing attitude which makes the abuse of certain groups more acceptable in some peoples opinions. But when you start talking in legal sense and using legal terms like incitement to hatred/violence then it becomes a different matter all together. There's a very strained factual causation as it is with an example like this. Person A says something about a person/group of people, Person B internalises this and goes out and commits violence agaionst this group. That's stretching it.
Legal Causation has a much higher level of proof. FB at no point encourages the violence or victimisation of anyone. It's the equivelant of someone on here posting "I'm going to kill x" and being charged with incitement to violence.It just doesn't stand up from a legal perspective at all. Such a case would get no where.
People have a legal right to hold views which are abhorrent to the rest of us, they have a right to express these views (especially with like minded people who have paid to hear him express them), they don't have the right to force their views on other people nor do they have the right to encourage others to infringe on anyone elses rights.
the problem with free speech is that occassionally you have to listen to people who are going to offend and abhore you but the european court itself has said (i'm paraphrasing as I can't remember the exact quote) that you have a right to offend,horrify and disgust.
Riven can I ask you what restrictions you'd put on free speech in this context?who would be protected?how would you word it?(genuinely interested, I know typed dialogue can sometimes appear sarcastic)
Like most systems the current one gives air to vile opinions,some may see that as a flaw, but it is also the system which best allows for valid and revolutionary opinions to be heard.

mayorquimby so if someone is taunting a disabled person, is that ok as they have a legal right to offend(just asking as confused)

I'm beginning to wonder if something happens to my posts between me sending and you receiving.....do they get translated into Swahili...I have explained the disabled joke thing...read back..

Riven...I asked you earlier if you still wanted to talk to me, you obviously did as you came back and asked me about Mosques and the BNP.....I answered you.

All I ever do is answer peoples questions, it's not my fault if you don't like the answers, I say nothing outrageous..

..I have religious/political opinions on homosexuals and immigrants, and I have laughed at jokes about disability.....just like millions of other people....

I am the normal one here....don't talk to me if you know you are going to be offended by my answers..

Well it depends but most likely no they wouldn't. At that point it could be quite validly argued they are infringing on a specific persons rights. They are interfering with them and could possibly be intimidating them. It could be a public order offence or if the person is in fear of physical force and the person is intending to put them in that state of fear it could be an assault.

It would depend on a variety of issues.

the ECHR were more commenting on people expressing views and opinions rather than abusing an individual person.

I get what you are saying, that is probally why the police take it seriously.

You do NOT answer the questions you are asked very rarely in fact.If you did maybe people would be clearer I asked you one question in particular repeatedly but you could't/wouldn't answer it.there are ways of expressing opinions without blanket insults to whole sections of society.Your wording on homosexuality for example is always insulting and never explanatory or clear.Has any gay person ever forced anything on you?have you ever lost a job or house to an immigrant?If not then why so angry?

Actually put it a better way, they'd have the same legal stand-point as taunting most other people. The courts and police would give consideration to the circumstances surrounding the situation. So the fact that they're disabled wouldn't automatically make it an offence. The relationship between the two would come into it, the vulnerability of the victim of the taunting (this would go for most people a woman being accosted by a group of men is more likely to be intimidated than a man being taunted by a couple of teenagers, ditto the elderly) would most certainly play a factor.

yes sadly they havn't made it a hate crime yet.

nh; What Q did you ask me repeatedly..? I am on my phone alot on MN so I don't see every post,...sorry.

There are no right or wrong answers here...just opinions and views being aired and discussed...who's right ? I'm not a politician, I haven't got a team of advisors telling me what to say, I have no script...I'm just a normal person who chats on MN in between cooking and tidying up....no one is affected by anything I say.

And can you please tell me where I have been insulting..?

Re; me losing a job or house to immigration.....what sort of question is that? do you have to have first hand experience of a situation before you get involved..?

Re; homosexuals forcing their lifesytle on me. Think we went over that on the equality bill thread.

Daftpunk - you say "no one is affected by anything I say"

Really?

I think Lenin's responses earlier indicate that some people are affected by your comments:

"Good god, I can't fucking stand this anymore.

It honestly makes me want to cry, which isn't the most rational response to these things but really it's just not fucking relevant to anything on this thread. Please can you just stop it?"

dp your posts are always peppered with veiled insults ie. i don't find you interesting, you aren't making sense as usual (which is one of your favs)

it's just a load of wank

I asked you many times if you thought it was ok to cherry pick which parts of being a catholic suited you and ride rough shod over other aspects of the faith which don't suit the way you live.You do insult people left right and centre if I had to list them it would involve a lot of old threads!can't be arsed i#m afraid.What happened to you to make you like this?

Well I was vaguely intrigued by your homosexual phobias, and you haven't enlightened me. Not a chance in hell I'm going to wade through a whole other thread to find it though. So, I guess I'll never know the extent of the stereotype you fear. Ho hum.

SEA it was a persistent thing over a few weeks or so I think.

Biwi....I didn't see LeninGrads post...

Is she on MN now..?

'Its just a load of wank' I think you might be onto something there!

She posted at least three times, dp. I suggest that you read the whole thread before posting such sweeping statements.

So is DP still on point 3?

1. sudden change of attack, becomes concilliatory and apologises saying 'i just need educating', 'help me understand' 'its not my fault i'm a total and utter bigot'

DP is going to try the help me understand approach - you know she does not see every post - we must help her understand.

DP go to a mirror and repeatedly say my name into the mirror - over and over and over and over again.

That will really help you understand.

Sorry to be talking about you, Lenin. Couldn't stop myself posting

I'm a hetrosexual women, do you really think the sight of 2 men kissing would be to my taste..?

Doubt it would do much for you either...