Man shot dead in Stockwell unconnected to terror inquiry

[QueenOfQuotes]

Just seen a ticker on the BBC website saying that

2nd sentence came out a bit wrong- I meant there are certain innocent people that could be shot that could result in very dire consequences- with ramifications further than the actula shot person.

2nd sentence came out a bit wrong- I meant there are certain innocent people that could be shot that could result in very dire consequences- with ramifications further than the actula shot person.

It's interesting that Israel apparently avoids shoot to kill for suicide bombers- prefering to be able to talk to them.

I'm not sure that a man who is being held down should be shot- somehow that makes me a bit uncomfortable. I think they also need to be 100% certain that he came out of the right flat before assuming anything further.

Bit pointless carrying out covert surveillance in police uniform don't you think?

I wonder how many suicide bombers the security forces in Israel manage talk to?

I don't know about whether they should have a shoot to kill policy or not.

As I said if they're going to have one, then they need better policies and procedures to ensure that it is used very rarely and that any possible alternatives have been used before the situation gets to crisis point (in this case, for example, by having uniformed officers present and/or by stopping him sooner).

However I suspect that in the scheme of things, we'd be better off without a shoot to kill policy at all. More innocent people will be killed, and there's nothing like a bit of perceived police brutality to recruit terrorists - the IRA had a recruitment bonanza after bloody Sunday. It's not a question of doing everything necessary to stop any individual suicide bomber, but rather to stop the next series of them.

And we more than likely do not know about all the intelligence that lead to the event - intelligence around terrorism is not something that's shouted about in public generally, especially while still carrying out an investigation.

The reason he was shot while on the ground was because if he had had a bomb, it was the only way to avoid detonation.

Well yes obviously- but I think that a man running away from police wearing uniforms - is behaving differently from a man running away from police in plain clothes. And if your justification for shooting him is going to be that he refused to stop for the police- then its only fair to ask whether he actually knew he was running away from the police.

gobbledigook - they could have had uniformed officers as backup around the corner.

SP, I don't imagine for a minute that they all went off after this bloke leaving the building unwatched!

The building was described initially as a block of flats - then as a house - now as a block of flats again. Has anyone seen a picture?

It is very likely that they would have let him know they were armed police - 'Armed police - stop!' or whatever. Don't they have to, in these situations?

There are quite a few would be in prison in israel hunker munker.

And exactly SP- exactly.

They reportedly shouted "ARMED POLICE - STOP" at him.

JAnh- the only image I saw was of a big block of flats (5 or 6 stories) - but I think that was where one of the arrests was from- not sure if its the same block of flats that was under surveillance.

I believe so, Snafu.

Also, at the entrance to the station, they very likely had uniformed police. They have had at all the stations I've seen in the last couple of weeks. I doubt they stood back and said, "Dunno who these guys with guns are, I'd peg it if I was you, mate!"

snafu - but he was a foreigner, and station concourses are noisy places.

Jan - I realise that, but I do think it is safe to assume that most of them went. If not - blimey how covert could it have been with that many police?

Do gun touting gangs usually shout out to people in the middle of the street 'Stop. Police.' in order to shoot them? I think it's pretty likely that if you hear this, it is in fact police officers.

SP - he's been here 3 yrs, working as an electrician with a good command of English. My Mexican friend has been here 2 yrs and I'm pretty sure she'd understand 'stop police' or 'armed police' or whatever.

There is a HUGE difference between what is processed verbally and what is processed visually. It's why all communication in this house is backed up with symbols. You can't be sure that a man running for his life, with English as a second language will have processed that. You can't be sure he would process it visually either- but it would have given him more chance to interpret the situation.

Ever played the game Chinese Whispers? What is said is often not the same as what is heard.

And if verbal warning is seen as enough to justify shooting then I hope they have contingecy plans for those who don;t speak English, for those who are deaf and for those like my son......

He was a foreigner, but he'd been here at least three years and I'm pretty sure he'd understand the phrase "Stop, armed police" - don't you think?

Well whoever does live in that house/ block of flats, now knows for certain that they're under observation.

I don't think the fact that he ran was the only reason he got shot - there will be more to it than that. We won't know the whole story as I said, because intelligence on terrorism is not going to be broadcast in full the general public.

Soooo if he knew it was police why didn't he stop? I think its safe to assume - now we know that he was unconnected- that he didn't know it was there police. Therefore if the plice are going to have a shoot to kill policy they have to ensure that they are communicating that in a way that people understand. Otherwise even more innocents will be shot.

HM - not if he was panicking - I'm not sure I'd understand it if I'd got myself into a state of total fear about being chased by men who might be drugdealers with guns.

Well that's why they're plain clothes, SP - not very covert if they're all hanging around in uniform! And they would be sitting in cars and strolling around and trying to look inconspicuous but I bet there were a lot of them.

Also, over the distance involved they probably did radio-controlled handovers (I've watched police dramas...)