Should some women who have been raped take responsibility for the attack?

[AgentZigzag]

A survey carried out by the Haven service for rape victims, found that from the 1000 people asked, 71% of women thought the victim should take some responsibility for the attack if they'd got into bed with someone, compared to only 57% of men.

About 15 odd years ago, I spent the night with a bloke, but made it clear beforehand that I didn't want to have sex, and he was fine with this. But in the morning he said to me that I should be glad he's such a nice bloke because he could have raped me at any time needless to say I didn't have anything to do with him again.

It seems that women are less forgiving of the victim, why would that be? Shouldn't rape be unacceptable under any circumstances? Or are there some situations that fall into grey areas, which I suppose is why we have a judicial system to define those boundaries.

I think it's disgusting that people hold rape survivors accountable. There's always that distinction between the poor woman who was raped when a stranger broke in and the dirty slapper who dared to go out and trust someone who appeared to be nice to her. Women who go along with this should wake up. When someone is dealing with the effects of rape why the hell should they feel they were responsible? Women should be safe to walk on the streets regardless. Read The Cultural Scaffolding of Rape by Nicola Gavey and educate yourselves.

Absolutely amberlight - I wouldn't have expected him to do anything else. But reading what other people have written makes me think perhaps I was just lucky, and if he hadn't done what I asked him to do the thought that I might have some responsibility for that is horrific.

I agree with talullahbelly. I read a study about some people having a need to feel that the world is fair. (I find this often in American films and media ). About the need for victims to be attributed with some responsiblity. The reason this is done is because otherwise the scary notion is that it could happen to anyone even us, and people don't want to believe that. They prefer to believe that the victim must be to blame somehow because that would make the world fair, wouldn't it? A kind of black or white thinking. I read that this way of thinking was behind all the conspiracy theories revolving around the Madeleine McCann case. Its so sad that people still think like this.

I do wonder if this research will get into our schools and educate our children. Sex education, especially of boys,, should include respecting women and what consent actually means. It should also talk about the implications of ending up on the sex offenders register.

In a way assuming that if a woman dresses "provocatively" and gets attacked/raped, it's her fault, is also rather insulting to men - it assumes that they have absolutely no control over their penis; that as soon as they're vaguely attracted to someone they have to have sex with them.

The whole thing is ridiculous. And I am quite shocked that there has been the view expressed in this thread that some woman have it "coming to them", so to speak. I imagine their view would change very quickly if it was them, their daughter, or another female relative/friend in that situation.

To me these kind of attitudes (some men thinking rape is ok, what constitutes rape, women finding it hard to say no etc) just reinforce the absolute need for sex education in schools to include educating about this kind of behaviour.

Sakura makes an interesting point. There were Jews (and others) after the war who thought that somehow those who had died in the death camps were somehow responsible for their fate - they shouldn't have gone so willingly, they should have resisted, they went passively etc. etc. The idea that one's people could be so systematically murdered was so incomprehensible that surely the victims must have 'allowed' it to happen.

Cross post Posie!

"The idea that one's people could be so systematically murdered was so incomprehensible that surely the victims must have 'allowed' it to happen. "

Yes. How we'd love to believe that the systematic murder of the Jews could have been prevented somehow.
And yet its the only way some people can make sense of the world. Seeing the reality also forces religious people to ask lots of scary questions, such as: if the world is so random, unfair and inconsistent a place, then what is God's role?

serenity - damn right it is insulting to every half-decent man as well as insulting to every woman.

I think this is why it's so important to get across to kids when educating them that sex is supposed to feel good and be enjoyable so therefore if one partner is not enjoying and responsing with enthusiasm, or if you are the inexperienced partner who thinks that this isn't much fun but that must just be the way it is, then the sex is WRONG and should STOP for at least some discussion as to what's going on.

Agree Edam - the guy I was with respected what I said - he managed to control himself, so men do have that capability! I do think a lot of this is insulting to the decent men out there (and there are plenty of them).

It's insulting even to men who aren't particularly great citizens in any other area of their lives. Someone who gets a bit lary even aggressive on a night out is still not as despicable as a rapist, IYKWIM.

I am very suspicious of this piece of "research". It is published by a charity with a very poor reputation, does not appear to have been peer-reviewed and sounds well dodgy.

Having published a fair amount of research I can assure you that there is usually a large gap between the research paper and the final press release. This particular document has gathered a huge amount of publicity for the Haven but it doesn't ring true. It is fairly obvious from the response on a large number of bulletin boards that the report does not reflect the attitudes of most posters which is a fair indication that it is bogus.

It's worth adding that the Haven is a particular egregious charity - far too little of the money it raises goes to it clients while its executive earns disturbingly well.

Haven't heard of the Haven before, but now having read the research I can also see how dubious it is. There is some very subjective language used, for example 'Londoners it would seem are quite blase when it comes to being safe', and 'worryingly'. There are also some very dodgily worded questions, and some figures don't make any sense at all - bisexuals are more likely to have walked home alone in the dark than heterosexuals apparently. So what? Do we therefore conclude that bisexuals are more 'blase' than heterosexuals but also more likely to be raped and therefore should take more respnsibility for their safety?

Yep, dodgy.

Interesting as well that one of their campaign posters says 'You don't owe sex to anyone. If you haven't consented to sex then it's not ok, it's rape'.

Seems like a bit of a contradiction in what they're claiming in their research there.

Have only read the first page but to be honest i think these statistics are an artefact of the survey.

In a survey, people tend to identify with one of the hypothetical actors - women will identify with the woman who gets into bed with a strange man they don't want to have sex with and think 'i wouldn't do that, that's a risky thing to do' and so they vote that the woman DOES have some responsibility. Men however think about the man and think 'i would never have sex with a woman who doesn't want to have sex even if she is in bed with me' and so they vote that she DOESN'T.

If it was not a survey but a genuine event that happened to somebody they knew, they'd probably answer differently based on their prior knowledge of the situation and individuals.

Obviously I will advise my daughter to take all reasonable precautions, like not getting too drunk, but that is so that you can run fast and fight back and not be 'the' victim the perp chooses

Good advice if you live in a world where rape happens only to drunk women who can't run.....

You DO realise women are abducted at knife point, or some other such way and raped dont' you?

Where women actually do report the rape (which some surveys put at as little at only 6 out of 100 women who actually are raped), this is what happens:

(Rape case stats from the BBC website linking into the police/CPS statistics (2006 study)(adds up to more than 100% through rounding).)

Insufficient evidence for police 17%
Victim withdrawal before trial 14%
Victim declined to complete initial process 14%
Offender not identified 10%
False allegation 10%
Not enough evidence of assault 4%
Deemed no prospect of conviction 2%
Deemed not in public interest 1%
reason for not proceeding unknown 10%
dropped by CPS 6%
Taken to trial but not able to convict 6%
Convicted 8%

Anyone any good at maths? If only 6% of women come forwards in the first place, and only 8% of them see a conviction, what's the chances of a rapist getting away with rape?

what a comfort that must be to the family of those two poor girls

i wasn't drunk, and yes it was reported as the police found me afterward. No, he was never found nor convicted, tho i did do 6 ID parades in the early days.