Should some women who have been raped take responsibility for the attack?

[AgentZigzag]

A survey carried out by the Haven service for rape victims, found that from the 1000 people asked, 71% of women thought the victim should take some responsibility for the attack if they'd got into bed with someone, compared to only 57% of men.

About 15 odd years ago, I spent the night with a bloke, but made it clear beforehand that I didn't want to have sex, and he was fine with this. But in the morning he said to me that I should be glad he's such a nice bloke because he could have raped me at any time needless to say I didn't have anything to do with him again.

It seems that women are less forgiving of the victim, why would that be? Shouldn't rape be unacceptable under any circumstances? Or are there some situations that fall into grey areas, which I suppose is why we have a judicial system to define those boundaries.

i couldn't believe this.just awful.when i was about 17 i had a crush on a guy a few years older.i was a virgin and emotionally immature. a snog was fine,maybe a fumble..but that was it. despite this, i was a full on flirt. the guy pulled me into a utility room during a house party.i was fine with that at first.flattered by the attention and the excitment of it.however,the guy got heavy with me and pushed me down on the floor.i couldn't get up and said "no,erm,im on my period" and other feeble excuses then started panicking and properly saying "no,no i don't want to!"

he wasan't listening to me an saying stuff like "oh,you're gagging for it..you've been flirting with me all night"

despite my protestations,he was undoing my trousers and pushing me down.
i will forever be thankful that i had told my friend to come and find me after 10 mins(like i say,i was all talk and no action)
she came in and realised what was happening and took me to a bedroom where she called me a taxi.

he STILL came to the bedroom and told my friend to get out!!he had been told in no uncertain terms that i didn't want to have sex with him,but because of my behaviour earlier in the evening,would not accept this.
we literally had to scream "FUCK OFF WILL YOU!" to get him to leave.

my point is this..according to the survey,because i had done some hard core flirting with that guy on previous occasions and earlier that night, i deserved to be raped? i asked for it?

i have never been more terrifyed in my life.just because a girl has a big mouth,it doesn't mean that she deserves to be violated.
i still think of my lucky escape..a few more minutes and my life could have been vey different.

Dunno but it depresses the hell out of me.

I suppose it's the kind of illogical reasoning some people indulge in to make themselves feel safe.

If they can identify a 'reason' for the rape - short skirts, drinking, flirty dancing - and they don't indulge in that behaviour then they'll be safe. Obviously

I also think many women are poisonously judgmental of other women's behaviour and have selective memories about their own.

I'm not sure which would be the bigger ordeal; being raped or having to relive it in front of a jury of women.

BTW you met a real creep didn't you?

No.

And the fact that some people still think it does makes me so mad! It basically means that I should have to curtail my activities in order to avoid a hypothetical rape! Infuriating!

BTW my 'hypothetical activities' tend to involve running after dark on my own, rather than getting into bed with men

It's very depressing. Seems like a lot of people still believe rape is a sexual act not a violent one.

actually i would like to read the research but I won't because I have too little time.

But I wonder about the linkage?

I think that there is no 'excuse' for rape. End of.

Quite seperately I wish young women would take greater care of themselves. I worry about their being out late and drunk and looking so vulnerable.

But those two things are quite seperate .

I wish my son would not come home past the biggest pub in town on his own and get out his i-phone to tell me he is on his way. I worry about him and wish he would be more careful, but it would not be his fault if he were mugged.

I wonder if the researchers constructed questions that linked women needing to take care of themselves with responsibility for rape
Does that make sense

On LBC this morning the presenter was saying How far can women go with their flirting? What if they do decide to get in a car with a man they have met that night and go back to his flat?'

AND? AND? That means the man has no control? Cannot hear what the woman is saying?

I'm really surprised its women who seem less understanding about the victims plight in this survey

Surely the name of the crime states the obvious as consent isn't part of the wording.

I agree with Pag, whilst I definitely think no victim can ever be responsible or blamed for a crime against them I do think people should be more safe. I think women should take better care not to walk home alone, wear appropriate attire, not get too pissed and watch their drinks. However I still think that any woman should be able to walk home alone or go back to a man's house and not be taken advantage of.

It's just so, so much easier to blame the victim, at least in part, that recognise the extent to which all females in our society are subject to constant sexual violence and the threat of sexual violence.

It's a bit like murder statistics. What would happen if every assult and murder of a woman by her husband/partner/ex-partner was broadcast on the evening news? The sheer scale would horrify us. Yet it's kept quiet, ignored and swept under the carpet. "Domestic violence" is a much fluffier term than "assult and murder"

Orm 'BTW my 'hypothetical activities' tend to involve running after dark on my own, rather than getting into bed with men hmm'

Can I ask why you feel you have to make a distinction between these two activities? Isn't that just saying that some are higher risk than others?

Orm 'BTW my 'hypothetical activities' tend to involve running after dark on my own, rather than getting into bed with men hmm'

Can I ask why you feel you have to make a distinction between these two activities? Isn't that just saying that some are higher risk than others?

You do hear similar bullshit about domestic violence, though - from 'Well why did you marry him?' to advice aimed at the woman on 'managing' the man's behaviour - obey him, submit, don't 'answer back', be extra careful if he's under stress. It all goes towards supporting the idea that men matter more than women, that women's purpose is to look after men, service them and keep them happy and if a woman is 'uppity' (ie demands to be treated like a human being and have the same rights to go out when she wants to, drink and flirt and be lazy or make mistakes) then she should expect to be 'punished' in some way.

In a word, no.

No. It's just making it clear that I am not being unfaithful to my DH

I dont think it can ever be the woman's fault BUT I can understand why they might blame themself (wrongly) after the event. I know someone who does, purely because theyve had the confidence totally knocked out of them. Men always have teh ultimate control though in that situation, you cant 'make' someone rape you.

Lol Orm, you never know who's reading it

By the way Cyb, if it was the breakfast presenter on LBC it might help you to note he is an almost circular divorced man in his 50s who wears his trousers under his armpits. No woman in her right mind would want to flirt with him.

SolidGoldBrass, yes oh yes.

Yet there is a 'grey area' for rape. Theoretically if I'm drunk as a drunk thing can be, and somehow end up in bed with some equally drunk bloke and didn't specifically say I was consenting but did nothing to say I was having a bad time....technically speaking there's no consent and it's rape. So maybe I wake up in the morning and realise there's no way I'd have said yes, and I'm totally horrified and I panic. But the bloke might not have the slightest idea that I hadn't consented, and may have had no will to rape me whatsoever. If I report it, technically it's a rape because I didn't say yes, but morally it sort of isn't.

That kind of scenario is the most difficult to unpick.

Well I'm a man and I know what NO means and wearing a short skirt does NOT give me any kind of permission. It's dangerous nonsense.

What about gay rape? should I be worried if I take my shirt off that another man might find that attractive?

The only 'grey area' is if both get so drunk neither can remember whose idea it was. The moral of that is 'don't get so drunk you don't know what you are doing'

NOT because being that drunk gives anyone permission, but on the practical grounds that if you go home with someone and you don't know what you are doing then then they might not either.

No... Obviously I will advise my daughter to take all reasonable precautions, like not getting too drunk, but that is so that you can run fast and fight back and not be 'the' victim the perp chooses....

I certainly don't want to move backwards towards a mindset where women are temptresses and men are only doing what comes naturally........

A man who rapes somebody is the one who is responsible for that rape.

ps, I was just thinking, this survey might have found what it wanted to find.

i mean, if i were asked, would you try to reduce your chances of being sexually assaulted by not drinking too much? yes/no (I'd answer yes).

Ditto, would you try to reduce your chances of being sexually assaulted by making sure you knew how you were getting home? yes/no (again, I'd obviously say yes).

But that'd be to protect myself from assholes who think that they have the 'right' to rape a drunk stranded woman. NOT because I think 'she' is asking for it.

So, I'd like to see how they got this information.

If you go out with someone, go home with them, get into bed with them and say "no sex", you have put yourself in a vulnerable position. If the other person is not a nice person, you are there, alone, in bed. Your choice to do that may have put you at risk. There is no point pretending otherwise.

Does that mean it is your fault if this person acts on the opportunity that has presented itself?

No. Hell no. Unless they are an animal, incapable of controlling themselves. No matter what the situation, even if by your actions, you have helped to set the scene, as it were, it is the fault of the person who chooses to have sex with you if you have said no to sex. You have said no. A decent, moral person, accepts that.

And what about rape within marriage? You are in the marital bed, you got into bed with him that night as every other. Is it then your fault if your husband rapes you? Of course not.

You can do things that place you in more danger than other things. That is true. But it's still not your fault if someone else chooses to attack you.

A bloke who is functioning well enough to get a hard on and have sex is functioning well enough to understand the word 'no', IMO.

Very depressing survey. Suspect Tallulah is right about some of the factors. The faulty logic of 'oh, if I'm a good girl it won't happen to me, therefore anyone it does happen to must have done something wrong'.

And many women being poisonously judgmental about other women. Isn't that the classic behaviour of an oppressed group, though? Vaguely remember that similar things are said to have happened under slavery in the Caribbean and USA.