Proposed march through Wooton Bassett

[FrozenNorth]

Here

Initially saw this on the BBC but this link gives a bit more detail. I support everyone's right to free speech but ... dear goodness, this seems to be exceptionally bad taste. My DH is an army doctor and, during his time in a free Afgan clinic for civilians run by the army, saved many Afgan lives. He's going out there again in January. I can imagine I'd be incredibly distressed if he'd lost his life in the conflict and somebody wrote to me explaining what he'd 'really' died for. Ugh. Maybe it's just my personal bias, but I can't help feel that the proposed march is sited to cause maximum potential for violent conflict and to cause maximum hurt to those who are bereaved.

But Noddy, if they have fled here because the alternative of remaining where they are is so awful, and I know that it can be; then criticising your host country, which has given you a place of safety, is not good manners really. One can't expect the place to which you flee to consist of the bits you liked about where you were before, nor is it reasonable to expect the resident population to accommodate that.

I haven't said any of those things!That is what I mean about open and honest discussion.People have fears which are based on ignorance a lot of the time The govt has introduced the immigration system we have so they need to explain it, the good and the bad.I see the WB protest as extreme

I didn't say you had said them, but that scenario is implied in an immigrant being told to fuck off if they don't like it. They would presumably only be told that if they had complained or criticised the place they had moved to.

Agree totally about an open immigration debate. I would like to see far stronger border controls than we have at present and far more scrutiny from both other EU countries and ourselves of immigrants.

I also don't think that fears are based on ignorance. I was aware as far back as 1986 of the desire to have Shari'ah courts running alongside or in place of the UK justice system. It scared me then, and it does now, not because I am ignorant, but because it would signal a divisiveness which once in place could not be mended.

You need to work on your history Riven and specifically about colonization.

Fiqure of speech Riven, the British left those countries in a better state than they found them in....that is a fact

If you object to colonialism on the grounds that the British didn't adapt to the local way of life then it's double standards to tolerate incomers changing the way of life of their new country.

It's common sense: don't come to a new country and try to recreate the intolerable life you left behind.

Sharia courts have no place in British society. No place at all. Look at Egypt. Enshrined in law that for every male witness in a court case, two female witnesses are required. A woman's voice in court is worth half that of a man. Revolting. I want no part of it, not even the part of tolerance on cultural grounds.

Fwiw: the British in India adapted with enthusiasm to the Indian way of life and the caste system. Adopted it and exploited it with impunity, until 1947. They were the white maharajahs.

Now would you have approved if they hadn't adapted to it and had tried to change it? On the one hand, socialistically beneficial. On the other, none of our damn business.

My dh isn't taking the job of a Belgian Riven; he's a member of the UK Armed Forces seconded to one of the Military Staffs over here, so a Belgian by definition would not be doing his job.

Most of the non-Belgians who have jobs here are with large multi national companies, working in a European HQ for a couple of years and then moving on, so the local Belgian jobs are safe from the depredations of the incomers; or they work at the EU or NATO. Moreover, and this links back to learning the languages, to work in the local economy here you need 3 languages, Flemish, French and English. To work in the EU you need either English or French fluently, and then a sound working knowledge of the other language; the same for NATO, but English is more the requirement there as the Americans hold many of the NATO posts.

As for the Beth Din operating in the UK, they have done for years, but do not posit themselves as an alternative justice system. They also give equal status to men and women as required under UK law and concern themselves more with inspecting Kosher establishments; deciding who can be Jewish if there is a dispute; the construction of ritual baths; supervising religious divorces; granting licences to mohels; certification and inspections of abbatoirs; supervising conversions; resolving some business disputes between Jews; and tackling questions relating to burial practices. They do not rule in cases of domestic violence unlike some of the Shari'a courts. I have no problem with a religious group having it's own method of dispute resolution, the C of E has Consistory courts for example; BUT these imo must NOT hear criminal of family law cases. UK law must be paramount here.

But there is provision for a Jew to obtain a 'get' prior to a legally recognized divorce in the UK.

Actually, I think that religious courts would be great for filling the gap where mediation perhaps has not worked. Obviously not to take the place of a court, but think that perhaps an Iman or Rabbi does have its place, especially in family issues to run parallel to UK law.

The legally recognised divorce is the one that counts in UK law. Women often have their civil divorce, but do not get the Get, which is the religious divorce. That is where the Beth Din comes in; but legally, if not religiously, she is divorced.

Riven, I hope when you've stopped sulking you come back..

To those of you who say the British left their ex-colonies in a 'better state' than when they arrived, could you provide facts rather than rhetoric, please?

Perhaps you should try speaking to people who actually come from those countries and ask their opinions. For example, the excessive political (and now national) corruption in Nigeria was actually put in place by the British - they carefully constructed a system which allowed transfer of power to the Nigerians by making sure that the Brits' chosen puppet figure got into power plus a whole host of other measures to ensure that thiings worked exactly as they wanted them to, rather than creating a truly democratic system where Nigerians could benefit themselves. Nigeria has been in a huge mess for decades - yes, a mess which they should have sorted out themselves, but nonetheless a mess that was started by the British (not to mention the billions of oil pounds leaking out of the country to British companies over the decades, etc etc). This is just one British ex-colony - is this what you're referring to as 'a better state'?

In any case my statements about the effect of white Brits abroad was not a tirade against colonialism; that's all in the past. My point is that if you want to talk about how immigration relates to the UK, your discussion is incomplete (and therefore inadequate) if you only refer to people migrating into the UK. And, scaryteacher - yes, Vikings and Normans did that too, of course! As did the Romans, etc etc.

The fact is that immigration has always been a key feature of this country's growth and development for thousands of years. Without it there wouldn't be a living soul walking these lands. So immigration per se is, of course, not a problem; nor is immigration of brown skinned folks to white countries or vice-versa. The issue of importance in all forms of immigration, is, of course, how it's managed.

As far as the language issue is concerned, I also think it's essential that people learn to speak the language of their host country. I've taught hundreds of foreigners to speak our language and have never met anyone who couldn't learn to speak it effectively, so I'm pretty inflexible on that point. However I don't have any problem with people maintaining their own culture, customs, language, religion, etc alongside integrating into life into their host country. I think people who do have an issue with this are doing it mainly out of ignorance (as dp demonstrated above by saying she didn't mix with gays or Muslims), which breeds suspicion and fear. People should rely less on what their imaginations tell them about other nations and more on direct experience - like the Neo Nazi prisoner who ended up on a wing with all black inmates. He ended up making great friends with them and developed a great sense of respect for them. Dp - would you be brave enough to challenge yourself to hang out with Muslims and gays for a month? Perhaps you could set up a blog on MN - there are loads of us who'd love to find out what you discover about yourself and about them.

Well said Speedy. And Nigeria is only one example of an African country that is more screwed up as a result of our interventions.

SpeedyGonzalez;

Actually, one of my best friends on mumsnet is a lesbain, she doesn't post on here anymore but we talk alot off board, i've never met her in RL and tbh we don't really talk about homosexuality...we got together on MN through our mutual interests...music and things like that. She is aware of my views, and to her credit, accepts them, she knows my political opinions are only a tiny percentage of what i'm about. when we talk I don't even think of her as a lesbian because she's not a militant bore always banging on about her "rights"...we have better things to talk about.

But it's true I don't mix with homosexuals or muslims in RL....maybe I should, I know they'd love me.

" would you be brave enough to challenge yourself to hang out with Muslims and gays for a month?"

I couldn't help but LOL at this,I know where your coming from but how do you suggest she accomplish this?

Should she knock at the nearest Mosque and say 'hello I'm from the BNP and I have been challenged to spend a month hanging out with muslims, can I come in and can you recommend anywhere locally to pick up a few homosexuals?'

It just touched me as funny.

Ha ha atlantis....I could do a Liz Jones

Griffin never said he found homosexuals creppy, he said some people found them creepy.
Which is true.

Aman Choudary by all accounts is living in considerable comfort on benefits. He is obviously a childish attention seeker (see past plans to have queen wearing a burka).

I mix regularly with both homosexuals and Muslims and in fact even with homosexual Muslims.

Pretty damn groovy huh?

hey you..

reading that book you recommended