Akmal shaikh

[thehappyprince]

Just think it's desperately sad he is going to be executed within hours for a crime committed apparently due to psychotic beliefs from bipolar disorder. Wish there was some way for him to get clemency.

Ok so not just the Sun (my mistake I apologise) but the first link: less than 1000 polled and a whole 51% in favour of capital punishment for adult murder (standard basis for poll)

Second link: 7 years old, no mention of numbers questioned but indicates 13% think death apprpriate for death penalty.

Third link is a rehash of the statistics presented in first link.

So I stand by my assertion that such polls are not representative.

That is a very nasty slippery slope, to start thinking "oh well he seemed like an unpleasant sort, fair enough that he was put to death". There are lots of people I don't like or whose values and behaviour I deplore - does that make it OK to kill them? What about if someone finds me - or you - deplorable because of our views or behaviour, eg eating meat, being pro abortion rights or being gay?

There's a reason we have civilised justice systems in civilised societies, you know - to safeguard rights and due process and to make sure a person really does hold responsibility for their crime and to make clemency possible where it's necessary.

I knew someone who was killed by a mentally ill person in a horrible attack. But I'm glad that justice prevailed and that person was not convicted of murder but taken to a hospital where they could be looked after and treated. It is not in the least relevant whether that killer was an unpleasant or difficult person to be around - in fact he probably was, but that should have nothing to do with the legal outcome.

sorry meant to sat: second link 13% think death penalty apprpriate for Drug Smuggling

"sorry meant to sat: second link 13% think death penalty apprpriate for Drug Smuggling"

that was just the first google page I came to.

The point is not if people believe the death penalty should be given to drug smugglers the point was made that people still believe in the death penalty, and they do, and not just sun readers, or daily mail readers ( which are the biggest newspapers in the country, ergo have the largest readership), or even the guardian readers (shock horror), but more people in this country believe in the death penalty than do not believe in it.

But the fact is China has it's own laws and it's own judicial system and people who travel to foreign countries (any country) do so knowing they will be subjected to that law.

He was carrying the drugs. He was found guilty, there was no evidence he was mentally ill, so he was humainly put to sleep (usually they shoot people).

NancyDrewRocks

I disagree hugely with the death penalty, but on a purely factual point, IPSOS-MORI are a reasonably reputable polling company, depending on their accuracy for their business. A sample size of 1000 is usually quite accurate.

What it actually means, roughly, is that:

If we were to poll 1000 random people repeatedly, then we are 95% confident that the numbers presented here will be accurate to within 3%.

Polling more people won't change the other numbers - it's a very curious and interesting property of statistics.

Here is a Sample Size calculator.

Sorry... I was slightly wrong there.

Polling more people DOES work but to go from say 95% to 99% confidence, you have to poll an absolutely massive number of people - and 95% confidence is more than good enough for almost all purposes.

Reprieve have statements they have gathered including from his last GP giving a clear account of someone with deteriorating mental health evidenced both by his bizarre and grandiose delusions, disorganised & chaotic behaviour and disjointed / rambling speech which was described when he represented himself at trial (apparently causing those present to burst out laughing - hmm).

As anyone who works or has experience of people with severe mental illness know, lack of insight and therefore not seeking medical advice / help is common and often part and parcel of the illness. Of course there will be people with bipolar who don't commit crimes - bipolar encompasses a wide spectrum of illness from v. mild at one end to treatment resistant severe psychotic illness at the other: to quote a friend who said she would never break the law when on a "high" so he is responsible is like saying that someone with an aggressive severe cancer should pull themselves together because my friend with a rodent ulcer survived with no ill effects. Can't compare one person's experience of an illness with another I'm afraid.

The problem as I see it (as others have said) is that despite compelling evidence he did have a severe mental illness affecting his ability to knowingly commit a crime is that he was denied a mental health assessment. If this had happened in the UK, he would have been assessed after his arrest and his sentence would be adjusted to take account of his illness - not necessarily shortened. In fact, length of time incarcerated is often longer with hospital sentences as there is no "fixed" sentence after which the offender is released. However, if they are successfully treated and no longer pose a risk they can be rehabilitated into the community. Resources are actually pretty good once in the forensic system so support is available.

I can't get my head around the idea that his mental health should have no bearing on his sentence, think it's tragic.

if (and actually I don't agree a bit but even accepting your POV) they understand

what evidence do you have that this man was not mentally ill?

I wonder who is the worst off in this;is it the victim (and to me he is), or his family who are no doubt wondering how they could have helped a man they beleive to be mentally ill to avoid this? I reckon it's both (one of my biggest reasons for hating the death penalty btw).There'sno fight left for poor Akmal,but my thoughts will be with them becuase I cannot imagine their horror.

Georgimama

You are right, he might not have been diagnosed until caught. I missed that possibility completely.

Whilst I have no evidence one way or another on the truth in this case, unfortunately it is obvious that people desperate to avoid being executed will profess mental illness even if there is none. I understand the reason why those on Death Row do so, but it is also understandable why it contributes to a general public cynicism about mental illness.

The Chinese authorities should definitely have allowed for appeals and for medical evidence to be taken in consideration, with independent doctors conducting a medical review... but then authoritarian communists have never been particular sticklers for due process.

"what if someone with Mr Shaikh's aledged mental disorder travelled to a foreign country and raped or murdered someone, would people still say "poor man" and how sad it was?"

well we had a case not disimilar to that situation right here in the UK very recently. A man with a serious sleep disorder murdrered his wife in his sleep. The jury were told to either find him not guilty, or not guilty by reason of insanity.

They chose the first option, he walked "free"

Just like with someone with a MH issue there was no way of knowing before hand he would do that before hand, and it was because of his disorder that he killed her. No different imo than of any one with a MH issue who has commited no crime previously, but then as a result of the illness commits one.

On this case, well I'm against the death penalty in any circumstance, but also abide by the "when in rome" thing, ie you commit a crime in a country which has the death penalty and are caught then sadly you take what is given in that countries judicial system.

HOWEVER, in this case I don't think his mental health issue were take into account, and in any trial, anywhere in the world I believe all circumstances should be taken into account. No doubt the man I mentioned above in my post would have bee executed in China had he killed his wife there, as I have little faith that they would have looked at any of the medical evidence.

Great post Happyprince.

I work in forensic mental health and your third paragraph is spot on.

'The Chinese authorities should definitely have allowed for appeals and for medical evidence to be taken in consideration, with independent doctors conducting a medical review... but then authoritarian communists have never been particular sticklers for due process'

True indeed.

And it is possible I agree that he could be dx'd after arrest- as per Gary McKinnon of course,which also has been called up as possibly an excuse (though I suspect (but cannot know) OP you will trust Mr Baron-Cohen on this as I do).

"I have seen too many people I grew up with lost to drugs to ever have compassion or sympathy for these people no matter if they are using the old 'mental illness' chestnut or not"

Yes - so have I - and it caused mental health issues that have now (I suppose one could say inevitably although being the proverbial optimist I hoped wouldn't) ended my marriage for good. A man with mental health issues that aren't being dealt with (or known about) can do all sorts of stupid shit.

Expat sums it up well

"Yet we still have thread after thread on here with people getting arsey about their 'harmless' 'recreational' drug use."

recreational drug use nearly resulted with me dead and my H in prison.

MH care in this country is shocking, the day that it happened they wanted to admit him but could't as there were no beds in any of the pysch wards in the county. Thankfully they found a bed the following day - in a building site, yes really 4 wards opened in the middle of a building site because they were so stretched for beds that they've opened that part of the hospital before they've even finished building it.

I think the McKinnon case is totally different, it was a cyber crime that cost money (allegedly) not potential lives ( and they should be thanking him for spotting the backdoor into their system ),committed in this country, we can try him here, he does not need to be extradited under that idiot agreement our useless wonderful government signed us up to.

Atlantis, you could argue the opposite in that as Akmal had not had treatment for his illness (which is one that may respond extremely well to medication), he could potentially receive treatment, support and monitoring that would mean he was not at risk of (however unwittingly) committing a crime again. I'm certainly not agreeing that McKinnon should face charges in the US but that you can't compare two totally different cases so glibly.

It is different but thereare also parallels esp.in terms of media reaction- in particular the lack of understanding out there about psych issues, the wide worldwide variations in procedures, and the scepticism many have towards dx's obtained awaiting trial.

All this stuff about not believing he was mentally illhas been thrown at that after all. And whilst we could do something and try himhere,morally its the same- people with disabling conditions should be shown empathy and that taken into account undertrial.

I typed a long post about my DH and my experience of trying to get help for a then suicidal man under the NHS and totally failing:its a miracle I have him alive here today. I deleted it as it was too personal, but without someone forcing him into the GP office he'dnever had got meds, and even then he never saw a CPN, Psych etc despite the police bringing him home after a suicide threat.IME a MH dx is as hard to get as an ASD one, so its no surprise that many in custody get a dx later on.

Oh and I cannot see posting names, MN playing up for me sorry

But post before last- AS may not respond to meds in the same way as Bipolar but there are methods for modifying behaviour in asd that are successful (doing MA in Autism)- thereowuld have been plenty of options to help G mcK pre crime if dx was known.

Off topic a bit sorry but AS is still a misunderstood phenomenon.

" Atlantis, you could argue the opposite in that as Akmal had not had treatment for his illness (which is one that may respond extremely well to medication), he could potentially receive treatment, support and monitoring that would mean he was not at risk of (however unwittingly) committing a crime again. I'm certainly not agreeing that McKinnon should face charges in the US but that you can't compare two totally different cases so glibly."

I was responding to someone else 'glibly'(as you put it) comparing the cases.

As I said I don't believe they can be compared insofar as someone who hacks into a system (as long as he didn't push the red button marked 'kiss your arse goodbye' ) is not a danger to society in the same way as someone muling £250.000 worth of drugs into society to kill people with.

Drug mules, dealers, pushers are as bad as terrorists and should be treated with the same disdain. Would you say 'poor terrorist he was brainwashed and blew up a building with 27.000 people in it, let's give him some drugs and make him better?' if you would then I feel very sorry for you.

mateykatie I am aware that IPOS-MORI are a reputable polling company and what the figures mean, perhaps I needed to make my point clearer (not easy after a bottle of wine )

which was that it you poll 1000 people, which gives you an accepted confidence of 95% that you will be within 3% accuracy of general population that is kind of crucial when the statistic is 51% in favour and the argument being made is that "most" people support capital punishment. I didn't spell that out as I thought it was taken as a given with polling.... (not being sarky honest )

NancyDrewRocks

But according to the link posted (ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/2348) the figure in support of the death penalty for at least some crimes is 70%.

The 51% figure is when asked specifically about cases of 'adult murder'.

Are we saying he was brainwashed Atlantis?I am not. I am saying he appeared to lack the mental capacity to understand his actions.

There are examples of peoplewith downs syndrome being used as suicide bombers: doyou think that is the same as someone with full capacity (assuming they had ld). If that makes you feel sorry for me go ahead, I feel proud of my moral stance.

I don't agree with the death penalty fulls top and never will, but if the person to have been help repsonsible (the people who either recruited him or palnted the drugs on him depending which happened) was given an exceedingly long and hard zentence I would have no objections; it is my belief however that in this type ofcase the ul;timate most severe repsonsibility rests at the feet of those who used someone unable to make safe and balanced judgements.

" Are we saying he was brainwashed Atlantis?"

No. I said would you have sympathy for a suicide bomber on the grounds that they were 'brainwashed' if they killed 27.000 people ? I think most people would look at the suicide bomber and say it's a shame someone didn't shoot him before he set off the bomb, no matter what his mental capacity, this man had enough drugs to kill 27.000 people they caught him before he could set off this particual time 'bomb', his punishment was death.

" I feel proud of my moral stance."

And I mine. The more people we execute who do something very wrong the more lives we save down the line. I'm not saying everyone should agree with the death penalty, or support it, all i'm saying is I do for certain people (murderers, paedophiles, drugs runners, dealers etc)and I would quite happily throw the switch (push the needle in etc), it's something I believe I could live with, we all have differing views on justice and punishment and all views should be respected if not agreed with.

I respect your view but don't think your conclusions are correct. I don't believe executing someone like this puts drug traffickers or manufacturers off at all. There are enough people out there who are easily influenced (young, naive, mentally ill, homeless, addicts) and they will just recruit someone else to do their dirty work. If it worked, China wouldn't have a drug problem and it does.

I'm sorry for all your losses but if you think an eye for an eye justice works, then I think you are sadly wrong.

You seem to have an enormous amount of anger about this - I too had similar anger to do with a different issue and found that channeling it into helping/speaking to charities that help people (in your case) with drug addictions and issues was quite beneficial. I don't know if it's something you've thought about. I bet they would bite their arm off to have someone as eloquent and passionate as you helping them.

your arm not theirs

Atlantis, people like you terrify me- not so much the brutality of saying you'd be 'happy to flick the switch' (although that chills me tbh) but the assumption that you or people like you have the right to condemn others to die.

Executing dealers?? I really hope to god a child of yours isn't found one day with a few too many grammes of skunk or whatever on him. By your reasoning a large number of my friends would have been executed in their teens.

You might say 'oh I wouldn't kill the petty dealers' but where would you draw the line? People carrying class A drugs? People carrying a lot of class B/C? People who run chains of pubs perhaps- they 'deal' in alcohol which is just as destructive of lives overall as drugs.