Akmal shaikh

[thehappyprince]

Just think it's desperately sad he is going to be executed within hours for a crime committed apparently due to psychotic beliefs from bipolar disorder. Wish there was some way for him to get clemency.

"If anyone has listened to that song he recorded, you cannot tell me that man was not mentally ill. I know it's not a given but hell..."

I once watched an episode of x factor - I thought all involved were mentally ill.

"its highly unlikely that his old Psychiatrist and/or mental health team are going to do a press release about his past mental health."

extremely unlikely since the radio and newspapers are stating that there was no medical record of a mental illness

No, my understanding is that the accused is asked to substantiate the mental illness claim, which is wrong. Reprive, the charity, asked the court for reports about his mental illness to be taken into account, but they weren't.

Obviously some leeway needs to be given for the Chinese system, as it is very different to a Western court of law, but as far as I understand it, the Chinese placed more emphasis on the fact that a diagnosis hadn't been made as far as mental illness, than the fact that Mr. Shaikh was mentally ill.

All that shows AvrilH is that there had never been a diagnosis. As many many thousands of people are not getting the mental health care they need even when they and their families jump up and down begging for it, it is not hard to imagine that someone with very serious problems could have no documented history of mental illness.

Agree Georgimama, and it is very sad if that is the case

but I think we won't ever really know

I agree partly with Wannabe, in that if you travel to another country then you must accept their laws and punishments. If you break their laws, then surely you suffer the consequneces as set out by that country's government? We wouldn't be happy if someones husband took to marrying several other women in our country because it's okay to do in his country would we?

OTOH if the man was genuinely mentally ill (of which we have had no evdiencec yet, have we?), then yes of course he deserved clemancy. Though like Wannabe, I'd also question why a mentally ill man, was left travelling alone.

Anyway, it is horrible tragedy for all involved, my sympathies are with his family and his children.

I'm no psychatrist, but if you read this he hardly sounds like a man with a firm grip on reality, and a Foreign Office doctor who interviewed him was 99% certain he was bipolar or had schizophrenia. And if you read that article you will also see that he had moved to Poland when he remarried, and by the sound of it lost touch with his first family, then got divorced from his second wife. It's alarmingly easy to fall through the cracks of society, you know.

Usually I would agree with the contention that if you travel to another country then you must accept their laws and punishments but (and it is a big one!) I cannot accept capital punishment. Ever.

To kill another human is wrong. I cannot fathom how today, amongst educated people in a civillised society this debate rumbles on. There can be no excuse for taking the life of another.

Avril, Shiny and others, that's what I think is the tragedy. The fact that he was killed and we don't know if or how ill he was.

I don't understand why people can't understand how a mentally ill person can be travelling. He was an adult. You cannot stop an adult living their life unless they are a grave danger to themselves or others and then they have to be sectioned and that is quite a serious step to take. Otherwise, they are free to live life however they see fit.

Perhaps those that are baffled by the fact that someone who is 'mental' should be able to move around at liberty would like to see a return to the 'old' days of the Lunatic Asylums?

Lock up anyone a bit strange and hey presto- everyones safe, nobody gets hurt.

I hate the death penalty on principle, it is plain barbaric and uncivilised.

However, the "mental illness" defence seems astonishing to me. I understand why people use it so often as a defence against the death penalty in desperation, and even grudgingly support them doing whatever they can to avoid the death penalty, but I find the evidence in this particular case singularly uncompelling.

Is confidentiality of medical records is that important when you're on Death Row? He, or those acting with power of attorney on his behalf, could easily have waived that confidentiality if it could save his life. It is monumental, mindboggling incompetence on behalf of his legal team if they didn't do so.

I do find the government have been really pathetic on this.

David Miliband couldn't even be bothered to get involved directly. I heard some junior flunkey on the Today programme this morning who had talked to the Chinese ambassador instead of our Foreign Secretary.

Meanwhile, his brother Ed, who Mumsnet inexplicably decided to shower with adulation, helpfully decided to blame China publicly for the failure of Copenhagen instead of taking any blame himself. Why didn't he listen to the sensible voices who realised the "world government" and "targets" approach he was taking was doomed from the start. How can you get every country in the world to agree on anything? They could have chosen a sensible and measured localist approach which had a chance of success instead of the ridiculous "50 days to save the world" rhetoric. Do you really think that slagging China off in public to try to deflect attention from the failure of the West is going to increase Chinese respect for Britain?

The Chinese government is authoritarian and and disgusting and evil, but their sheer economic power unfortunately means that we have to be hard-headed and realistic in how we deal with them.

Wholeheartedly agree that our own Govt. have been nothing short of 'shit' on this matter.

Shit scared of China. Shit scared of the USA (constantly shit scared of USA- think Gary Mckinnon)

Just shit in general.

I don't understand what you mean about "confidentiality of medical records" mateykatie. Those records haven't been made public to the media, but the Chinese judges/legal process had access to them. He just didn't have a documented history of mental illness so they refused to believe that he was mentally ill.

Georgimama

I thought I heard an interview with the Chinese spokesman saying they hadn't had been giving the medical records despite requesting them.

Not that I trust Chinese spokesmen for a second, I still remember those awful press conferences during the Olympics.

Georgimama

Here is one source. According to the BBC report:

A report from the official Chinese news agency Xinhua said that China's Supreme People's Court had not been provided with any documentation proving that Mr Shaikh had a mental disorder.

Yes, exactly. Which means there was no evidence in his medical records that he had a diagnosed mental disorder. As I understand the FO tried to have a proper report done to be admitted as expert evidence (as it would be in this country) but it wasn't permitted. So not surprising there was no evidence.

Every time we refer to MH as 'that old chestnut' we raise the societal pressure to hide away, leave help until too late. It lets down people who are victims, and also those who care for those people and encounter them casually also. My DH ahs survived two attempts at suicide (one as a child-MIl found his MH issues 'embarassing'and refused him help,theo other as an adult- now well through medication and help) and I can assure you it is no chestnut,in fact that time was hell for both of us.

Its an awful regime imo that executes: i am totally against such irreversible punishments,and such extreme cruelty. But toexecute someone with MH issues who did not understand the nature of his crime,if he knew what he was carrying at all, is babric- not that its a great surprise that China is barbaric,though.

DS1 (ASD and other MH issues) would IMO be quite able to act like this becuase his ego is somuch bigger than his sense of reality. Thankfuklly atm he's ten: I don't want to think about what could happen to him as ab adult.

I haven't much experinece with drugs (although experience of the criminal underworld that provides them,someone I know and was married to a friend is starting a ten stretch (hallelujah) for sex trafficking and drugs atm, I have seen the effects on his wiofe and kids of the abuse over the years) but I cannot see that the MH can be overlooked in this, it is the key to his behaviours.
I believe in harsh punishment for drug trafficking, but if someone is vulnerable, or ill,ythen it has at last to be a mitigating factor. Except of course not in China,I am surprised at people who are surprised China don't care tbh.

Tiredemma GayMcKinnon was who I thought of also, facing not death but life imprisonment. he gets the faking it comments also (despite being dx'd byu one of the most,if not the most, reknowned expert on AS in existence) and either of my ASD boys would do exactly waht he did if driven by an obsession. I amscared for them both, but as much becuase of societal lack of understanding as thier DX.

""To kill another human is wrong. I cannot fathom how today, amongst educated people in a civillised society this debate rumbles on. There can be no excuse
for taking the life of another." But that is a matter of opinion. Many countries still use the death penalty and not all are "uncivilized" societies. Similarly, in a recent pole here in the UK, it was found that the majority of people are in favour of reintroduction of capital punishment. Many people believe that it is not wrong in certain circumstances. The current case aside it is not IMO for us to demand that other countries change their means of punishing their criminals simply because we disagree with it. And if you travel to a country that still practices capital punishment and you commit a crime there, then you do so in the knowledge that if you are caught you may be put to death. You cannot argue that because you come from a country where the death penalty does not exist it is barbaric and you should be exempt. It's simple - if you don't want to face the death penalties then don't commit crimes in countries where the punishment for those crimes is the death penalty.

Wrt the current case, from the article linked to above:

"In 2004, he was called before an employment tribunal by a 24-year-old female employee at Teksi, who successfully claimed that he had sexually harassed her.
When she asked him to stop his behaviour, he complained he had not had sex in seven months and told her he was divorcing his wife. Then he sacked her."

He sounds like a deeply unpleasant individual. As for the emails he sent, I admit they sound odd, but having said that, they look not dissimilar to ones that I've seen in my spam folder.

I find it remarkable that this man was never diagnosed with a condition, yet his behavior happened to be such in the one fifteen minute consultation he had that they were able to establish with 99% certainty that he was bipolar. Perhaps he was, we'll never know. But I wonder why no-one ever seemed to raise concerns before this happened?

Tiredemma I certainly don't think that we should go back to the days of locking people up, my point was that we can't have it both ways though. if someone's mental health is such that they cannot take responsibility for their actions, is it fair, both on wider society and in particular the person, that they be left to do as they pleased and their inabilities only be brought up if that becomes necessary in the event they commit a crime?

In this instance Akmal Shaikh's crime was drug smuggling, which many would argue shouldn't be a crime punishable by death anyway. But what if he had committed a more serious crime? what if someone with Mr Shaikh's aledged mental disorder travelled to a foreign country and raped or murdered someone, would people still say "poor man" and how it was?

'what if someone with Mr Shaikh's aledged mental disorder travelled to a foreign country and raped or murdered someone, would people still say "poor man" and how it was?
'

I would: I would consider there to be two victims in that case there. He would be one of them.

It is a naturalfallout of the way the MH service works that somone (thank God) has to be provably a risk before they aresectioned, the chioices we are faced with otherwise are either locking up people who are not a risk (how inhumane is that? would my Dh have ben taken away, or perhaps my parents? or ds1?) or acknowledging that in the pursuit of the absolute best practive somecases will be sadly missed. Usually the sad loss in those cases is personal,suicides and wasted lives (thinking in personalterms of depressions, alcohol addictions and of of AS which I know a fair bit about professionally and personally and is considered under the remit of Psych services post- 16).

It isn't possible to have it both ways, and I would protest until the end of my days against people who are not a proven risk being shut away.

wannabe you are right - he harrassesd a woman he is a horrible man and therefore should be executed. If that makes perfect sense in your world then the mind boggles.

As far as I am aware the only poll in the UK which has queried whether people were in favour of the reintroduction of the death penalty was carried out by The Sun - hardly representative.

I stand by my assertion that state sanctioned murder is not the action of a civilised society. It is barbaric, cruel and should be unacceptable to every right thinking person.

In answer to your specific question the facts of Mr. Shaiks case are irrelevant to my opinion on whether the death penalty is appropriate. I for one cannot think of a single case where it would be.

What will happen to his organs? Will they really be sold on?

It is to my mind disgusting to execute any person by any country in the world, regardless of the fact whilst in Roman do as the Romans do just isn't an excuse for executions

WRT 'locking' people up for the safety of both themselves and others- those with MH problems that speak of killing/maiming/raping etc others generally find themselves in some kind of Psychiatric care for quite a while.
This chap was under the delusion that he was about to make it big as a pop star in the far east. Seriously you cant think that people should be locked away from society for thinking like that???

Its those who exploit the most vulnerable (is those who planted the drugs on him) who should be shot at dawn.

He didn't commit a more serious crime though. His crime was drug smuggling. There appears to be genuine doubt as to his mental capacity and I would much rather someone managed to fool the authorities and "get away" with a life sentence (life sentence in a Chinese prison, really getting away with it } than even contemplate the idea that someone with mental health problems could be executed for a crime they barely understood they had committed.

Your views astound me wannabe.

Obviously we should dispense with employment tribunals in this country, and just put alleged bad bosses up against the wall and shoot them.

" As far as I am aware the only poll in the UK which has queried whether people were in favour of the reintroduction of the death penalty was carried out by The Sun - hardly representative."

ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/2348

www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2003/apr/27/ukcrime13

www.beecareful.info/news/general/74447-channe-4-poll-reveals-70-per-cent-support-for-the-death-penal ty.html

" and just put alleged bad bosses up against the wall and shoot them."

Well that would make the working environment a better place.