How can anyone still follow the Catholic Church ?

[LadyBlaBlah]

I am not an alarmist, but really, after the way they have treated their children, how can we take their religion seriously?

There are so many other points, but in summary, what a total disaster they are.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8381119.stm

Dittany, maybe that is the main issue with attendance and males taking up the priesthood falling so drastically.

There is no longer any real respect for the leaders, but as I've previously stated I don't view my faith in God as the same thing as following the traditions of the catholic church.

I don't view the pope (certainly not this one) as my leader. The pope is selected by his "peers" not his followers. I have no say in that selection so would never "follow" that person without thought.

Your posting about his letter threatening to ex communicate people supporting the child in any abuse cases one of the reasons. I have also personally have always been disgusted with how much help the catholic church gave the nazi's escaping Europe after WWII.

This thread comes across to me as non catholics not completely understanding that just because a person believes in God they do not have to be obsessive about it.

How can anyone still believe in God let alone the churches who claim to represent 'it's' views and wishes?

And yes I said 'it' because by religion's discriptions 'god' was obviously not of this world and therefore an 'alien' being (no i'm not a scientologist ).

If 'God' did exist it was more likely to be a case of something in the drinking water and hallucinations on the part of the 'see-ers' or they were all loco from the sun. Who knows, anyway the scam was probably a lot of old men sitting round wondering how they could 'control' their neighbours when law and order was in short supply ( a bit like our government).

The catholic church is one of the most disgraceful in history, witch hunts and torture litters it's past and it's present is full of Nazi collabortors, peadophiles and murderers (not sanctioning condoms in aids rife countries to name just one), oppression and slavery, secrecy and control.

Religion should be banned on mass (no punn intended) as too many atrocities have been committed in the name of God. And if 'God' did exist it has long since abandoned this little planet otherwise i'm sure it would have reined down brimstone and fire on the leaders of the catholic church and it's own army.

And yes I know the God - squad will start heathen bashing, but I don't care because religion has a lot to answer for, just ask those poor children.

Well, let's see, we have an organisation which is inherently misogynistic and sexually dysfunctional. So just how surprising is it that the instution is riddled with child abusers and their apologists? The Catholic Church is obsessed with the glorification of male power over women and children, and the emphasis on celibacy (and the hatred of sex and women's bodies) means that every fucked-up pervert in town thinks that either joining the priesthood will 'save' him from his wicked urges, or at least allow him a pool of victims who won't be believed if they complain.

I'm far from a supporter of the Catholic church, actually I just dislike organised religion in general. I think it leaves a lot to be desired. And like all organisations the Catholic Church will, unfortunately, attract some people who want to abuse their positions of power. I think the leaders should take a long hard look at what the disgusting individuals got away with.

But..

and, trust me, I never thought I'd say this..

I think there is also a lot of good done by the church, by some individuals who are there to use their influence for good. And it is unfair to tar them with the same brush.

I think the Catholic Church is due a massive shake up, especially so that events like these don't harm the good Catholics.

I'd be really interested to hear about any groups within the Catholic church who are campaigning to change either specific policies (e.g. contraception) or to change the culture of hierarchical, secretive decision making that seems to lend itself so well to enabling sexual abuse. Does anyone know of any?

And dittany and others are right, this isnt about "a few individuals":

www.pinknews.co.uk/2009/10/01/catholic-church-sex-abuse-caused-by-homosexual s-not-paedophiles/

"Archbishop Silvano Tomasi, the Vatican's permanent observer to the UN, read out a statement after a meeting of the UN human rights council in Geneva.

He said: "Of all priests involved in the abuses, 80 to 90 per cent belong to this sexual orientation minority which is sexually engaged with adolescent boys between the ages of 11 and 17."

Tomasi added that it would be "more correct" to refer to ephebophilia, a homosexual attraction to adolescent males, than paedophilia.

The statement also attacked other religions, with Tomasi saying that most US churches embroiled in abuse scandals were Protestant, adding that the problem was also common in Jewish communities.

He added that "available research" showed that only 1.5 to five per cent of Catholic clergy had been implicated in cases of child sex abuse."

So that's all right then.

Sorry, forgot to add to link

I often wonder how otherwise intelligent women can continue to stick with a religion that despises them (be that catholicism or one of the various other myth systems that are continually coming up with ways to remind women that they are inferior 'special' by virtue of not having dicks).

I am an intelligent catholic woman and you would only have to be in my company for a few moments to realise I do not feel inferior to anyone let alone a man.

I have disagreements with my church, infact there is a thread from me only a month or so ago where I was considering leaving my faith.

I have done a lot of work in my local parishes trying to change attitudes and feel I can make more changes from within then moaning on the outside.

My faith is a force for good and motivates me on a daily if not hourly basis to be a better person. I became a teacher because of mmy faith, a lot of my charity work is motivated by my faith. I have not yet felt the need to torture Jews, sexually molest children or commit hate crimes against homosexals.

I think that there is something in the idea that the hierarchy of the Church is more than just its structure - that it's part of its meaning. And that therefore anything connected to the way that hierarchy functions is necessarily about 'The Church' rather than about the group of individuals which forms it.

Has anyone linked to this article here? It's quite simple in its argument

"Violence is also done by those working at all levels in the Catholic church, both in Ireland and outside, who knew that these abuses were taking place and did nothing to stop this crime, or to bring the paedophiles to justice.

In On Liberty, John Stuart Mill addressed the question of the evil effects of certain inactions or omissions, with characteristic clarity: "A person may cause evil to others not only by his actions but by his inactions, and in either case he is justly accountable to them for the injury."

I think that when the knowledge of these crimes has been as widespread as it clearly has, it is certainly possible to argue, as some have done here, that the Catholic Church is structurally violent.

Christians of all flavours have abused, tortured and murdered endless numbers of people over the years. Didn't seem to damage the religion's popularity in the past and doubt it will now.

I don't think the OP is too strong actually. The Catholic church should put its house in order. Sadly, under the current Pope, thats unlikely to happen.

Priests shouldn't be forced to live without an open sexual relationship, and the ridiculous idea that only a man can be the link to god should go...at the moment, the higher echelons of the catholic church are just an exclusive club of like-minded men, who will naturally perpetuat themselves by simply choosing more men like themselves to replace members who die. And nothing is going to change, as long as ordinary catholics put up with it.

While every catholic person I know is revolted by these crimes, I dont see the mass movement against the hierarchy that would unseat them, and fix the situation properly. And that's sad.

'I am an intelligent catholic woman and you would only have to be in my company for a few moments to realise I do not feel inferior to anyone let alone a man.

I have disagreements with my church'

You are not alone in your views and the way you have chosen to act on them. I cling on because i see so much good: particularly among young Catholic aid workers.

'Why isn't challenging your Church to stop this kind of thing happening top of your agenda'

If you had any dealings at a parish level you would know that this had happened years ago. The Catholic church brought in very stringent child protection policies before many other organisations did. Believe me, it's almost impossible for any adult to get anywhere near any children or vulnerable adults without being vetted and sent on child protection classes. I gave up helping put out the felt pens at Children's liturgy because I couldn't manage it all. It's extremely unlikely that any parish priest would ever let himself be anywhere near an unaccompanied minor.

Also, Ireland (where most of the abuse took place) is a very different culture from the UK. Priests were almost treated like royalty over there. It's not the same in England. Never has been. There has been less abuse here. Not that ANY amount of abuse is acceptable--it's shocking and contemptible and makes us very angry. And you bet we won't let it happen again.

That's part of the problem though, isn't it? People like you, are supporting a church that doesn't reflect the reality of how you live.
It does look strange to outsiders.

+sorry abd, posts xed. just reading your last one.

OK, it is good that people are doing something about it. But is it really right to lurch from one extreme to the other, whilst leaving in place the leadership that actively concealed the abuse?

Well I was given a doccument by my parish child protection officer, spelling out the procedures I must follow if I had any concerns.

'10. What should I do if I think a vulnerable person is at risk or is being abused?
NEVER discuss this with the person who you think is the abuser.

If you have witnessed abuse or received an allegation of abuse where a child is in immediate danger you must inform the Statutory Authorities (Police/Social Services). You should then inform the Diocesan Safeguarding Coordinator/Officer that you have done this. If you think there is no immediate danger you must report the allegation to the Co-ordinator/Officer immediately, who will then inform the Statutory Authorities.'

I just really, really hope that these animals who have raped, sodomised and mentally tortured their victims, really do believe in their God, because I hope they will then spend all of eternity in the deepest circles of hell for what they have done. And if you tell me that their God wouldn't allow such a thing then I will spit in his eye

Can't be doing with the Catholic church.

They make a virtue out of female suffering don't they.

And the abuse seems to be endemic, as does all the hypocrisy and bullshit that goes with it.

I saw a doc once about a lad who had been abused by a priest and his parents actually knew about it at the time, but were so totally cowed by the idea of priest as unquestionable leader that they didn't dare challenge him or say anything. They thought well, if the priest is doing it he must have a reason, he's the priest.

Nobody, but nobody, should hold that kind of position in society. I find it frightening that adults could 'follow' any kind of cult or group to that extent.

I am not going to attempt to justify or explain the actions of these priests and bishops. Again I am angry and like you wants answers.

I do not however recognise my faith as one that makes a virtue out of female suffering.

I also don't see myself as supporting a church I am at odds with. I disagree with them over homosexuality and condoms in Africa. But everything else I support when it applies to my life.

I totally agree MorrissZapp that noone should have that power.

Just out of interest, Morosky, do you also disagree with them over the issue of women priests?

The issue of condoms I have always felt is a bit of a ridiculous one. I can understand the logic behind the teaching - that sex should only take place within the confines of marriage and therefore both partners should be virgin and free of any STDs when they enter into their first sexual relations. However, this is naive in the extreme and completely fails to take into account any victims of abuse or indeed any other circumstances. In any case, as far as I am aware, no ex cathedra statement has been made on this issue, so this is hardly set in stone for Catholicism!