How can anyone still follow the Catholic Church ?

[LadyBlaBlah]

I am not an alarmist, but really, after the way they have treated their children, how can we take their religion seriously?

There are so many other points, but in summary, what a total disaster they are.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8381119.stm

It is utterly crazy. And tends to punish the innocent--the children who are orphaned when both parents die.

Lots of the Catholic policies to do with sex have similar effects. There was a woman in Poland who was venerated because she wouldn't terminate a pregnancy to save her own life. She died and the baby lived. She had two other children at the time. I always wondered how they felt about the fact she'd effectively chosen the foetus over them.

No I don't agree over women priests, if I could have I would have become a priest. I have not always been of that opinion though.

I do think that if you are that serious of a Catholic that you are not using condoms that you will also not be casually having sex. My partner and I have never used contraception but we have never had sex that we woul not be happy to end in children.

As a Catholic abortion is accepted when the mother's life is in danger, The wording from Pope John Paul's encylical of 95 ( I was teaching this last week) is that abortion that is willed to end life is hughly immoral. So an abortion that takes place with the intention of saving a life is acceptable.

I see your point Morosky, but as I said before, it fails to take into account abuse victims. Not all extra-marital sex is casual consensual relations.

Could I be arsed entering the fray?

No.

abra1d, if there omes a point where mother and baby ( it;s hardly a feotus at that point) are in danger, the Catholics believe that the medical profession should do it's best to save both as life is precious.

that is not the same - in fact wildy different to saying the catholic church puts the life of babies before the lives of mothers.

which is certainly UNTRUE. All life is precious.

If there was indeed a 'hallmark' movie of the week moment where the doctors came in and said to the mother 'choose' ( highly unlikely) then at full term, its not crazy to suggest a mother gave her life so a child could live.

which is NOT the catholic way. All life is precious, so the doctors would have been told to do the best for both patients.

Poor Morosky, the lone Catholic in the wilderness! I too am a Catholic, however I do not want to see Women Priests/Bishops, nor do I agree with condoms, I think that they give a false sense of safety, they get forgotten in the moment, they tear, they come off, they are only about 95-97% effective IF properly used. The very best way to prevent a pregnancy is not to have sex. The very best way to prevent any STD is not to have sex. (Simplistic I know, but sadly true.)

I am the Church, not just my Priest or Bishop. Me. I and my DH are the Church. I do not condone in any way the abuse by those in position of trust and authority. I do not believe that these people ever had a genuine vocation, I believe that they used their position to gain access to the vulnerable and were never vetted properly as to the depth and conviction of their vocation. Often poor but clever catholics were sent as young lads to seminaries before a vocation was ever discerned and were/had been abused themselves. This in no way excuses their evil actions.

In Scotland we too have child protection policies in place and have had for a number of years. As far as the cover up of abuse and the movement of those accused from parish to parish, that too is a damned disgrace and I would like to think that this situation will never again happen.

Why do you not want to see women priests macman?

Re the point elsewhere that the Catholic church doesn't glorify suffering - I beg to differ. Look at some of the saints - Maria Goretti springs to mind who chose death rather than lose her "virtue". And who was the saint who said "If we could appreciate the value of suffering we would thirst for it"? Was it Therese of Lisieux?

Morosky - I'm an intelligent woman married to an RC and I can honestly say I've never felt more hated as a woman.

I have a european and asian background - but in the RC environment of my 'd'h, mil, rome I feel second class and and without worth.

Anywhere where there's a position of power there's going to be horrible corruption - but LOL at the idea that all the woes of the RC church and child sex abuse is the cause of homosexuals.

Yep - like all the woes in our glorious country is the fault of non- EU people.

Erm - so who needs a reformation eh?

What a puerile OP!
Can't be arsed to read it all.
Did just think but will add that I'm with macmam
"I am the Church, not just my Priest or Bishop. Me. I and my DH are the Church."

Why is it puerile - where there is exploitation, corruption and abused, it should be dealt with? Whatever the organisation. No?

i don't understand the line that sex is purely for procreation. I disagree wildly with the catholic church on this. I believe that as a catholic i should be 'allowed' to prevent an unwanted conception.

I do believe that life begins at conception though.

i agree giveitago, where these things do exist they should be dealt with.

Yep, custardo - I was married in the catholic church to please dh family- no skin off my back - however, I've held off from having ds baptised in the catholic faith until ds says he wants to (then I'll be as proud a mum as any).

I jumped through hoops to marry in his church - for his family - yet - lol - priest was drunk (red wine stains down his front) and kept reading the bits and bobs and referring to me from London 'does fidelity exist in London' ' are yiou marrying for money (ffs no - he is shit poor - I've got more earning power than him!) etc.

Lovely lovely experience.

But apart from my experience which is nothing particularly bad - where there are allegations of abuse in the church - investigation and verdict please - not just a big cover up. Many people get their esteem and identity from religious organisations - they are stakeholders and deserve to have proper answers.

Not one Catholic who has posted here has suggested that the institution is perfect, they certainly have not condoned or accepted the things that have recently come to light.

The Catholic Church is run by flawed (some hugely) human beings. The fact of free will guarantees corruption in any organisation bacause of the human propensity to sin.

Catholic doctrine has one commandment at its heart, to love others as yourself. I see evidence of this in my parish every day.

For us lay people issues of child protection are at the forefront of so much of what we do and I second what has already been posted; I work with young Catholics and I and all those who work with me have been thoroughly checked out.

For Catholics who follow the teachings of Jesus as best they can the actions of some of those in power is a betrayal. To be lumped in with the people who committed and covered up these crimes just adds insult to injury.

Whilst it is very important to address the level of sexual abuse at the hands of priests, please don't forget the children who suffered years of physical and mental abuse at the hands of at least 18 orders of nuns. Nuns who have now acknowledged their guilt.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8394138.stm

'Foetus' is the correct name for a baby until it is born.

www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1I7DKUK_en&defl=en&q=define:foetus&ei=o84YS6LIKpy6jAerp7yLBA&sa=X&oi =glossary_definition&ct=title&ved=0CAcQkAE

Although I've always felt that abortions are used far too often in this country, to a quite disgusting degree, I don't think that a fertilised egg can be a soul. If it can still split in two to make identical twins it can't be a single 'soul'. Because one soul couldn't become two souls.

So I don't see aborting a fertilised egg as serious as aborting a 22-week foetus.

This, of course, places me completely in conflict with the Church. But it seems important to me to be very accurate about biology and what happens when conception takes place.

technically you are ofcourse correct - becuase you can't abort a 'baby' that would be inhumane wouldn't it?

the sould thing is irrelevent to me, its the potential of life.

Anyone wants to google Marcinkus, Roberto Calvi, Michele Sindona and the Vatican Bank?
It brings shivers down your spine, trust me. As an Italian, and witnessing almost daily the level of interference the Vatican State keeps exercising on what should be a lay state (Italy), I've reached a very high level of intolerance towards the Catholic church (though appreciating that the work of some priests in the community is irreplaceable. And I like Carlo Maria Martini a lot, who in fact, has never been considered as a possible Pope)

I agree about the potential: a fertilised egg is more than just any old cell, for sure.

Sorry for not replying before: Christmas mania.