How can anyone still follow the Catholic Church ?

[LadyBlaBlah]

I am not an alarmist, but really, after the way they have treated their children, how can we take their religion seriously?

There are so many other points, but in summary, what a total disaster they are.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8381119.stm

But those at the top with whom you have a grievance (and indeed, with whom all right-minded people would have a grievance - don't get me wrong, I am not defending them) have failed to follow the teachings of Christ.

But that does not mean imo that the whole institution is corrupt.

and thinking about it further, given that more than one individual covered up these acts (and it's worth bearing in mind that alagations were made against 46 priests, how many might there have been against whom no alagations were ever made?), did they discuss it amongst themselves? Did they each know that the others were covering it up? Or did these four individuals decide on their own to cover up?

I think the fact that there was such institutional acceptance of child abuse does make the church as a whole a very questionable organization.

Yes of course there is good and bad in every organization, but as I said before this isn't just about one or two bad individuals... this is about a majority of individuals abusing chi.dren with the blesssing of the authorities within the organization.

But these are not just any old people at the top. These are the people that RUN the organisation. These people set the beliefs, values, work styles, and relationships that exist in the organisation.

The Pope has still remained quiet on this. Would this be acceptable from any other organisation's leader??

I am struggling to think of any other situation where we would not expect a 'statement' or apology from the head honcho.

When I was a child living in London, our parish priest was consistently moved from parish to parish- as children we thought it was because he was such a nice guy. It was only later that we found out that it was because of the allegations of abuse against him, so this does, anecdotally seem to be something that is spread across the Catholic hierarchy, and not something that happened just in Ireland. I don't quite kow what to think about the OP, I know that you cannot tarnish the whole of the Catholic church with the same brush, but it does seem to attract people like this. I somehow think that it could be something to do with celibacy, that people with paedophilic predilictions felt it was something they could hide behind, or that it would supress their urges somehow, before discovering that it just doesn't. I have absolutely no factual basis for saying that, it's just a feeling I have when I try and rationalise these stories.

I do think it is something to do with the expectation of celibacy.

As a Catholic I genuinely don't know what tp say, I am as angry as anyone else.

I am angry with the people though, not the church.

Are the people and the church not the same thing, Morosky?

It's not 'a few' - it's 46 priests. And 4 archbishops covering up the abuse and god knows how many members of the police force ignoring victims' complaints.

At the very least, Catholics ought to be questioning the traditional secrecy and unwillingness to question or challenge leadership that lies at the heart of your religion.

How are you going to stop something like this happening again if you don't?

LOL at Dittany. I tried to introduce the 'Pope problem' gently.

dittany - storming right in where angels fear to tread

I do find it sad that Catholic posters (I assume) are reacting so angrily to this thread - okay the OP was provocative but I didn't see any other threads on this. Why isn't challenging your Church to stop this kind of thing happening top of your agenda? I don't understand.

There is just radio silence now though Spice.

The arguments and justifications are simply not rational.

I agree with you, Dittany. I was brought up in the catholic faith and went to convent school .

I lost my faith in adolescence but the catholic church is repugnant for so many reasons.

IMO, the answer is unfortunately that "it's just more complicated than that".

Yes what certain people within the RC church did was terrible, the fact that these acts were covered up was appalling, that people were allowed to continue abusing with the full knowledge of the church hierarchy - well the whole thing just beggars belief.

But situations like these aren't confined to the RC church. There was widespread child abuse in children's homes in the UK in the past, there have been huge problems with the treatment of people including children with mental health issues, and there continues to be abuse of vulnerable people by those supposed to care for them - children with disabilities are far more likely to be abused than children without disabilities. As with the church, the victims chosen are vulnerable one way or another. And look at what happened in Jersey - what was going on was obviously hushed up by the people in power. Appalling.

The other thing you have to acknowledge is that for many, being a RC is a cultural thing, it's part of your identity of who you are (thinking of my Irish/Italian friends). It is not something that you have sat down and thought about and decided to do (in most cases). It is just what you do. Of course when people do actually think about it, some (like me) decide that it is not a religion they feel comfortable with.

So yes it stinks, but people are not going to stop being RC because of it. And I can understand that.

I don't like 'the church' at all. I'm not certain what it's for.

I realised early on that if I was to have a relationship with God it would be on a personal and private basis, without the need for faff and grandeur and some bloke in pretty robes.

Yes we can learn from priests and popes and all that but in practise I never heard the pope say anything interesting, and some priests were inspiring, some were old gits.

I've learned as much from 'normal' people as from those charged with 'leading' us.

'The church' just seems a euphemism to me for 'people wanting to be in charge of something'

...and apart from the nice sound of singing in an archaic building, is there really a need for 'collective' worship in order to be considered a believer?

I still don't get why we have to prove we believe, or praise with a load of other people. It is bugging me again, haven't thought about it for ages - sorry, probably wrong thread.

I consider myself to be a reasonable intelligent adult who is also a catholic.

I was very much raised (by my Irish parents) to challenge the priests and any other religious person I met, and it caused me to get thrown out of quite a few RE classes while at school.

I conceed that I follow the traditions of the catholic church more from habit and ease than anything else, but to me my faith is a seperate thing to the establishment of the catholic church.

And I believe in God.

No they are not the church in its entirity, I am part of the church, the people over the years who I have attended mass with are the church. We are not rotten to the core.

I am not excusing this at all, I think it is very very wrong.

I don't think I am reacting angrily, I am being very measured when responding to the charge that I am rotten to the core.

Dittany I hardly think you are the first person to make a link between the Roman Empire and the Catholic church.

LadyBlaBlah - you are an alarmist, you cannot write off the beliefs of the millions of honest non-child-abusing people all across the globe who follow this religion ...

BUT

the crimes of the heirarchy of the Catholic Church are repulsive. The fact that it is so commonplace is shocking and surely only the tip of the iceberg. Yes, I am aware of athe cases in the States that have been coming to light for years and years. And yet yet there still seems to be this defensive impulse to deny the extent of the problem.