This whole EU rebate argument with the bl**dy french - why precisely do we stay in the EU

[handlemecarefully]

Ha ha! I'm going to get told off now for being francophobic. Guess it was a bit 'norty'

So anyway - I understand that we are the second largest contributor to the EU (after Germany) but get the least in return (in terms of subsidies etc). Since 1994 we have contributed £23,956bn compared to France's £10,537bn, and the lovely Mr Chirac wants to see the scales tip against us even further by arguing that our rebate (the only decent thing Thatcher ever did)ceases. If our rebate ends we will be paying 15x as much as France.

So my question is - why do we stay in Europe. What advantages does it confer to us as a nation? (I'm sure that there must be some - I'm just a bit ignorant on these matters)

Hmmm, I'm very shaky on the economics of the thing. Zubb, those were interesting arguments.
Not so sure about the Brussels myth of being an inpenetrable warren of bureaucrats.
I worked for the Commission in the 1990s and in comparison to something like the British civil service, it is very small.
Back in the UK, I worked for a parliamentary lobbyist and we often were lobbying the EU parliament and members of the commission. Once again, more straightforward and democratic than the UK. Not sure whether that is a damning indightment of the UK or an attempt at slashing through this factually dodgy idea we have in the UK that the EU institutions are very complicated and huge.

Guess there's a reason why the rich keep getting richer.

ahh - but they're not - I seem to recall they've slowly been dropping DOWN the 500 richest people list (the Times one - or whatever it's called)

Message withdrawn

so if we wern't i the eu an additionl reason would be the lack of influence we would have on policies which may affect trade?

ontop of the rest of europe being pissed at us for leaving and then getting a bit arsey over trading with us - which would affect our economy.

i am asking becuase this cannot cannot just be an argument for economists or the well educated. i,as an ordinary person need to have an opinion - i cannot rely on the mirror or the sun to tell me that the eu is wrong becuase of all the bloody immigrants. shut the chunnel, send them home mentality- which is a lot more prevalent in the most unlikely quarters that am sure some people would care to acknowledge.

so for that reason i really do want this debate to be somethng i understand.

what is the CAP?

good woman gggglimpopo, agree with your analysis. Chirac is a twat (and sadly I think Villepin is as well). Glad you got an apology.

yes custy, I think that is one of the reasons. If you're not part of the gang you're not able to join in.

CAP = Common Agricultural Policy.
An EU-wide system of farm subsidy payments.
Biased, iirc, towards encouraging high volume production to the exclusion of any other aims (like environmental degredation).
Said to subsidise inefficient farming, and to encourage things like the ripping out of hedgerows in Britain.

I worry about how impenetrable the administration of the EU becomes. I saw a programme on German TV about how the parliament moves to Strasburg (from Brussels) for about 4 days every month simply because to choose one location and stick to it has become a political hot potato. The 4 day move is an industry in itself with entire offices having to move for those few days to say nothing of the personal expenses (which WE pay for) of the MEPs.

I wonder about the effectiveness of an administration which cannot even agree on (or even broach the subject of) a permanent seat of parliament. I am in favour of the the EU in principle for all the reasons cited in this thread but worry about the administrative behemoth (sp?) which really is in danger of becoming an end in itself. And with a lack of transparency comes the risk of serious money-wasting (aka corruption).

good post franke

franke i saw that prog too (insomniacs anonymous on News 24) and it was compelling, car-crash tv, watching those crates of paper (paper, ffs) being lugged around hundreds of km every month.

I was shocked and appalled.

One economic argument which I find compelling is that the EU creates an open market in labour, goods and services, thus making it easier for firms in the EU to operate more efficiently. Imagine the economic loss to the US if US firms had to pay customs duty every time goods crossed a state line and if people needed to apply for a work permit every time they found a job in another state. European firms therefore benefit from having access to a much larger, open market for the goods they produce and for the inputs they need to buy. The downside of this is that many small producers, and workers, feel threatened by this open market, of course. Hence the strength of anti-EU feeling amongst small traders and workers in France. There is no easy answer to this dilemma.

I've already mentioned what I see as the political and cultural benefits of the EU. Having said that, I think that the democratic elements in EU institutions need to be strengthened, so that the Parliament has more powers over the Commission than it has at the moment.

why 'bloody'? I was born in France to a then French father. bet you drink 'bloody' french wine? and eat 'bloody' french cheese. and have been to 'bloody' france on holiday. how on earth can you expect anyone to take you seriously if you start a thread like that? would you feel that saying 'bloody' nigerians (for example) was ok?

The EU is NOT French. It is made up of it's members and there is a disproportionate amount of power based in the countries that are the most economically successful in Europe.

Mr Chirac may not be 'lovely', but he doesn't have the Iraqi blood on this hands that dear Tony does.

God i'm so wound up by this. Haven't read any other posts, but this has really pissed me off.

If you give a toss, make sure you and everyone you know votes in the European elections next time as most people don't.

Also I expect if you felt there had been a grave miscarriage of justice against you or your family in the British judicial system you'd be quite glad of the 'bloody' European courts existence so that you could appeal there.

Rather gives the lie to the name 'handlemecarefully' if you're going to be so totally arrogant and insensitive when you post doesn't it?

Sophable - HMC has apologised and we have all kissed and made up. Now we've gone back to debating the EU.

OK. it's still annoying tho. grrrr.

but then so is the EU as it could/can be so great, but is a) such an easy target and b) doesn't help itself at all by being a gravy train to some extent.

well, she has apologised only to gggglimpopo, to be exact.

do you think that pro europeans in this country are generally of mixed heritage/have experience of living/working in europe. are there any pro europeans out there that are 100% british and haven't really ventured much further ever?

HMC - I don't think you were being racist either fwiw. But I do have rhino hide as I have said on 278 other occasions, humour bypass alert sometimes on here.

The only interest I have in Euro stuff is seeing how long Blair can keep up his false smile in Chirac's presence, hilarious. And did you read their spat on press conferences 'I'm not doing one with you, so ner' 'well I'm not bothered so ner back' etc.

Don't think HMC's post was well phrased (you should know better ) ... however I think the Brits don't always realise how Britain gets its own way on other things... mainly to do with tax and finance.... but as in any other country, your local media will "protect" your local interest and coverage is biaised...

oliveoil I think that for humour of that kind, you need a 'rapport' with a person: ks called me a cheese eating surrender monkey, and because I have 'talked' to her on MN before, I know she genuinely means it as a joke. Making a generalised insulting comment on a nation directed to the whole of MN is not a joke, it's a just an insult.
I know I should join the sensible discussion about the EU but frankly I can't with that title still there.

Have skimmed most of this thread but not read in detail.

I think it was inflammatory for handlemecarefully to post 'bloody french', but then we've all made gaffes or silly remarks from time to time...

It is interesting that anti french sentiment is fairly prevalent in the UK. Do you think it is almost a deeply entrenched cultural attitude amongst the English? (and vice versa across the channel I must say)

This reminded me of a recent survey from french academics:

entrenched cultural bias

Sorry handle - you probably wish we'd move off this? Just interested in this

Just like to add I'm not endorsing the sentiments of this survey!

oliveoil. it's not a humorous thread or thread title tho is it? so i don't think your reasoning holds any water at all. I don't think i've had a sense of humour bypass (talk about pouring petrol on the fire) rather that i wouldn't accept that kind of comment about any other nation and it annoys me that the french in particular seem to be fair game until someone comments like ggglimppopo did or i did.

yep sophable, s'what I said!

thanks for the link enigma, very interesting survey (although makes me want to shoot myself).

PMSL at that survey enigma.

But I bet if you asked the same open question about practically any nation in Europe, you'd get the same negative response.

I wonder if they did that?