This whole EU rebate argument with the bl**dy french - why precisely do we stay in the EU

[handlemecarefully]

Ha ha! I'm going to get told off now for being francophobic. Guess it was a bit 'norty'

So anyway - I understand that we are the second largest contributor to the EU (after Germany) but get the least in return (in terms of subsidies etc). Since 1994 we have contributed £23,956bn compared to France's £10,537bn, and the lovely Mr Chirac wants to see the scales tip against us even further by arguing that our rebate (the only decent thing Thatcher ever did)ceases. If our rebate ends we will be paying 15x as much as France.

So my question is - why do we stay in Europe. What advantages does it confer to us as a nation? (I'm sure that there must be some - I'm just a bit ignorant on these matters)

One more comment before I'm away to a funeral.

My parents' generation (not my parents) voted for the European Economic Community. I have no problem with that, providing they rejig the CAP.

I don't want closer political ties, closer financial ties with Europe. Full stop.

There was no referendum on joining the European Union.

Maybe she should just stick to anodyne discussions about Tesco codes then beetroot?

I come on MN for discussions like this one.

So..any time something happens that we don't all like,the bleating about racism,democracy and referenda begin.........

thanks beety
because the french are not an oppressed minoroty doesn't mean it's OK to be insulting and hide behind 'oh but it's in good humour'. I live in your country, work, pay taxes, etc and don't deserve to be insulted as part of a nation you dislike.
And i had promised myself not to rise to the bait... b**gger

you can still have an informed debate on something like this without being racist she could have said "bloody Chirac" instead, i know it would p*ss me off for all the English to be blamed for Blair's decisions.

the French and English are now compatriots in Europe - and a bl*dy good thing too!

Europe's great - unless you want to go back to separate currencies, fierce border guards and queues, wars, import/export tarifs, no freedom to work/study in other areas of Europe, etc etc. Yeah, life was good before the EU wasn't it!

What I can't stand (like Caligula) is the fact that these protectionist policies (like CAP) are so severely penalising developing countries. But sadly, I doubt it will be changed much and no matter what Europe does, the US still has extraordinary protectionist policies for its farmers and major industries (like steel).

It seems to me that we (as Europe) would rather have a conversation about giving out aid to Africa than sorting out better trade between the countries which would surely be a longer term solution.

Message withdrawn

Beetroot....but uninformed debate is even more fun.

Not that hmc is......

What do people actually understand by the term "racism"?

Actually that's another thread - ignore this, I think I'll go and start one.

Beetroot i was addressing moondog when i mentioned that we can still have an informed debate I totally agree with what you're saying.

How about these as some reasons for staying in the EU - no wars in Western Europe since 1945? Franco-German peace after a period of 80 years when they were at war 3 times? Oh, and cultural and social interchange, free movement of labour, ability of EU students to study in one anothers' countries and pay home fees (thus increasing said cultural interchange). Is that enough for you?

[French cousins, family friends and inumerable EU students livening up my classes at the back of my mind here.]

You know, you really have to be on the end of racism to understand why the word can be bandied about so easily. I do actually think that it is racist to go on about the "bloody french". DH has a tendency to do that and I hate it! It's all down to the way he was brought up.

Whilst your intention might not be one of racism, out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. Be angry, annoyed and completely p*ssed off with Chirac. But don't label a nation. I spend my life fighting against the labels that I was given before my birth. Whether it's someone calling me the N word (which I won't say cos you'll definitely all be up in arms) or some ignorant twit making assumptions about the type of lifestyle, education, musical tastes etc I have just by looking at my skintone.

Shirley Williams made a good point about the EU the other day - it's been a huge impetus in ensuring the establishment of democracy in Europe. Greece, Portugal and Spain were all dictatorships before they started serious negotiations to join the EU. The EU won't allow dictatorships or countries with appalling human rights records to join. So it is a good incentive for those countries who do want membership, to put their houses in order.

Dragging ourselves back to the question in hand and perhaps wondering some more.
Is the EU on the verge of becoming unmanageably big? There are now some very economically disadvantaged countries in the EU, will all the richer countries have to bail them out?
How does the US work? Is it run on a State by State basis or do national economics apply.
I have never really understood what the EU was about. Can anyone enlighten me - or are we just going to have a debate about racism instead?

good point Bugsy2, I've never really understood it either and now that I'm in a galaxy far far away I don't feel a bit overwhelmed by it anymore.

Can someone please explain

An economic association of European countries founded by the Treaty of Rome in 1957 as a common market for six nations. It was known as the European Community before 1993 and is comprised of 15 European countries. Its goals are a single market for goods and services without any economic barriers and a common currency with one monetary authority. The EU was known as the European Community until January 1, 1994.

I think the original aim was to take advantage of the benefits of size - greater bargaining power economically on the world stage.

There are elements of the US states running their own economies "a bit" (local variations in taxation and benefit schemes). Everyone pays federal income tax, and most states have their own income tax on top of that. Sales tax (like VAT) also varies from state to state, and sometimes from city to city within a state. For instance, California has relatively high income and corporate tax & VAT, while Arizona has negligible VAT and low income tax. No VAT in the state of Nevada. Most southern states have very low corporate tax. For years different states had different minimum wages, but I think that has changed now (although certain sectors, like agriculture, are univerally exempt from minimum wage, anyway). Different states have different employment regs. Alaska has negative income tax -- year-round residents get paid to live there!

But USA has one basic interest rate scheme (the Federal Reserve, roughly similar role to the Bank of England). The economies of places like Nebraska, Alaska, Lousiana & California work very differently, for years the deep south suffered because of dependence on declining industries (agriculture, mining) while the other states did well. Then the south had a big boom by lowering costs for companies to relocate there.

TBH, I can't figure out why a single interest rate works fine in the USA but is supposed to be untenable in Europe, according to EU skeptics. But am not an economist....

whispers.....

Moondog and JT, thanks for sticking up for me.....it can be a tad lonesome when you are being berated with so much gusto!

...sneaking off again now before my fleeting reappearance sets it all off again....

Like Bugsy - I hope this thread can get back to the original question now, as I am interested in the debate... I shall lurk from now on rather than post, as I think if I post if will just get the old sap rising again.

I was going to apologise to gglimpopo and frenchgirl but feel disinclined to do that now since being called an ill informed biggot

could it be because there are such huge variations culturally and economically that one interest rate across Europe would just not work. Also, America although having huge differences from state to state is still one country, I don't think we will ever be able to see ourselves as one Europe. This means that we would never agree on issues like interest rate becuase it would affect each country so differently.

i wonder whether you could bring this debate on the EU down to a lower level as i had to read zebras post 3 times before i kinda understood.

i'll start with an anecdote - not really a grown up way to join a debate - still i will endevor to participate in the way in which i know.....i was in a taxi from Brighton on a 20 mile journey after missing my train. it was around the time of the election and the taxi driver had shown himself up to be a working class Tory ( maybe the worst kind?) he started slating the EU and talking about all the bloody foreigners that come over here etc, he went on with the suns favourite topic at the time abouthow we contribute more to the EU than we recieve and was generally very angry exp with the french farmers who are having a larf at the expense of the avg english working man.

so i interjected with the very little i understand. if this country were not i the eu, then those left in the eu migh get a bit pissy with us becuase we left...all politics and snubbing and stuff...so this would affect trade, trade affects jobs, jobs affect house prices and before you know it - its all gone a bit pete tong with unemployment rates through the roof - and stuff happening to interest rates that will er...er..not be good.

am glad we are debating this topic as it will give me a chance to re-evaluate my stance. aboce is how i understand it as a lay person who doesn't read newspapers. am i right?

ks, I saw that simpsons episode, love it! Very flattering nickname...

hmc, don't hide away. Continue to post and debate the question that you really want to debate. I'm sure that your apology will be fully accepted and I'm sure that all will be well again. Seeing your name above your post will not and should not, provoke anything other than reasoned debate.

C'mon honey, that's what it's here for.