This whole EU rebate argument with the bl**dy french - why precisely do we stay in the EU

[handlemecarefully]

Ha ha! I'm going to get told off now for being francophobic. Guess it was a bit 'norty'

So anyway - I understand that we are the second largest contributor to the EU (after Germany) but get the least in return (in terms of subsidies etc). Since 1994 we have contributed £23,956bn compared to France's £10,537bn, and the lovely Mr Chirac wants to see the scales tip against us even further by arguing that our rebate (the only decent thing Thatcher ever did)ceases. If our rebate ends we will be paying 15x as much as France.

So my question is - why do we stay in Europe. What advantages does it confer to us as a nation? (I'm sure that there must be some - I'm just a bit ignorant on these matters)

I think to a degree yes you're right Custy.
For e.g. there is no way as one teeny country we could hope to compete with an emerging economy like China. I suppose one of the points is that as a group of countries we have more 'bargaining' power.

ah.. it's becoming clear and as I suspected, thanks custardo et al

Personally I think there is far too much history between regions let alone nations for Europe ever to be even close to one country

"40% of the EU budget goes on agricultural subsidies?"

yes, of which France gets 25% (I believe) and Chirac is not perpared to discuss that one!

This is cut and paste from the BBC web site - the arguement against the UK rebate :

'When the rebate was agreed in 1984, the UK was the third poorest country in the European Community and was set to become the largest net contributor. However, it now ranks fourth in the EU in terms of gross national income per capita - behind Luxembourg, Denmark and Austria - thanks partly to sustained economic growth above the EU average. Things have also changed in relation to agricultural aid. This accounted for 70% of EU spending in 1984, now it accounts for less than 50%, and it is destined to fall further. The European Commission calculates that the UK rebate will grow from its current level of about 4bn to 5bn euros to an average of 7bn euros (£4.7bn) in the 2007-13 period. At the same time, the UK will drop from being the fourth largest net contributor, as a proportion of GNI, to ninth - behind France and Italy. The Commission also says that, even without the rebate, Germany, Sweden and the Netherlands would make net contributions "of a comparable order of magnitude" to the UK's and, as it points out, all three are "currently less prosperous" than the UK.'

Will go and get the arguments for it now.

OK - the BBC web site argument for the UK rebate _

'The UK won the rebate in 1984, for two main reasons. Firstly, it did not get much agricultural aid from the EU because its farm sector was relatively small. Secondly, it paid a relatively large amount to the EU because it raised more revenue than most other countries through VAT, and had a high level of imports. The UK still does not receive much farm aid - as a proportion of the country's gross national income, it received less than any country except Luxembourg, in 2003. Without the rebate, the UK's net contribution to the EU would be larger than any other country's, when measured per head of population or as a proportion of gross national income. Even with the rebate, it comes in fourth by these measures.

Its net contribution in 2003 was 1.5 times France's and more than three times Italy's. Multiplied over the years since 1984, this comes to a lot of money.'

I suppose KatieR & Suzy are right, it's the lack of a political will that makes the single interest rate untenable, not the genuine economics.

sorry to confuse, Custardo...Agree, it's an argument for economists!

I believe that the Uk still does the majority of its trade with the EU. If the UK weren't part of the EU that would mean trade barriers & tarriffs which British industry can ill afford. Else Britain could continue trading with EU countries, but Britain would have less influence over policies that might influence the EU economy (and the market for British-made goods).

Zubb - that's very interesting about the rebate. Put's a different perspective on it

Oh forgot was meant to be lurking only...

Although must say Zubb - am now a little confused after reading the 'against' and then the 'for' argument in juxtaposition

So it looks as though the reason we receive fewer farm subsidies is because we have a smaller agricultural sector versus GDP as a whole than other countries in Europe? Is that right?

I do some work with an EU association based in Brussels and I had a tiny insight into the workings of the parliament there. it is a huge monolithic organisation which is virtually impenetrable. I think the principle is a good one but it is so hard to work in practice, and to get every country to agree all the time.

ps. I got an A in Economics A-level and I honestly can't remember one iota of it!

HMC - thats why I pasted both really, as it shows how it can be argued both ways.

Personally I think that the whole system of finance needs to be reassessed, both the rebate that the UK recieves and the CAP, but the issue at the moment is being used as a political tool to deflect attention from the No votes that the Netherlands and France had. I'm all in faour of closer EU ties - but this does highlight the difficulties of trying to fit all the diverse member states into one agreed system.

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I didn't know about Elizabeth II's subsidy.

Nor did I, Caligula. Where is that post?

Yes sorry for upsetting you ggglimpopo. I immediately felt a bit guilty when you posted about your french dd and dh - I can see where the personal becomes political.

Still however would say that the general reaction was disproportionate and unwarranted.

What you say about the perception of other EU countries regarding Blair being a Bush stooge makes perfect sense....and puts in context some of the antipathy towards the English

or should I say 'racism' towards the English

gotta to ask........if my DH, tongue in cheek makes comments like "Bloody English" is he being racist towards me?? (Must add he doesn't use the word bloody - more like 'flipping' or 'blooming' English)

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Fascinating. Just goes to show the whole CAP thing needs a radical overhaul

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Tbh, I'm more outraged by the subsidies to Tate & Lyle and Nestle than I am by the relatively small amount given to HM.

Thanks, GGG.

As if she and Prince Charlie didn't get enough off the British taxpayers, why not rob the rest of Europe as well! Guess there's a reason why the rich keep getting richer.

Mmm, aperatif!

Thanks ggg.

Actually I quite like all things french. How is that for irony! Planning to holiday in Normandy later this year!