The BNP's Nick Griffin on Question Time, what are your thoughts?

[overmydeadbody]

link here

Good. Have a go at this quiz and tell me what you think?

well i got 8 out of 10...

what happens now..?

What did you think of question 10?

And what do you think about this quote from Griffin about what a Briton is? Compared to the definition you gave earlier?

"We don?t subscribe to the politically correct fiction that just because they happen to be born in Britain, a Pakistani is a Briton. They?re not. They remain of Pakistani stock. You can?t say that especially large numbers
of people can come from the rest of the world and assume an English identity without denying the English their own identity, and I would say that?s wrong. In a very subtle way, it?s a sort of bloodless genocide."

i got that Q right....but tbh VW it was so biased towards immigration i'm suprised i got 2 questions wrong....

i don't agree with that.....if the BNP toned it down a bit they would get even more support...it's my guess they will..

tone it down i mean..

Biased? In what way? It is based on factual data from proper research projects. Were you surprised then that immigrants are GIVING more economically than they are TAKING?

So you don't agree with Griffin's definition? That is, a racial definition of Britishness. That's good in my book because it means you're less likely to end up a racist.

But the bit I think you need to watch out for in the BNP's argument is mixing up ideas about ethnicity/culture and race and nation. These are all separate things. The BNP's ideas blend them together so you don't have to think too hard about what they are or where they came from. 'Race' for example is an EXTREMELY discredited idea within genetic science, yet people still use it as if it is a fact.

'Ethnicity' or cultural history or 'nation' are also pretty slippery ideas. The BNP uses them as if we all know what they mean. But actually they are all mythical ideas: they are things people believe that carry with them emotional attachment and stories and symbols of pride etc. But ultimately they were invented by groups of humans at different points in history. That doesn't mean people shouldn't feel attached to those ideas; but to use them to make sweeping judgements with doesn't work.

Take 'Nation' for example. Britain is a special case in Europe, because it has relatively fixed island borders (though it doesn't solve the awkwardness about boundaries between England/Wales etc). But until the late 19th century, the boundaries of most European nations were utterly flexible, and fought over. Still are to some extent.

'Ethnicity' is just as flexible but I won't bore you.

I'm interested daftpunk. Under the BNP rules, non-indigenous people would be asked to leave the UK. If you were a black member of the community who could trace your ancestors back to the 1500s, would you be expected to leave too? Given Nick Griffin cannot trace his family back that far, would he be expected to be repatriated to his Mongolian 'homeland'?

What happens if the indigenous people of Australia, USA, Canada and NZ got into power and had a similar policy? Would the UK be able to stand the weight of the repatriated white people?

My objection to the BNP is not so much that they are a bunch of violent fascists (though the evidence points fairly clearly to them being so) but that their policies are just not thought coherent and are riddled with inconsistencies. They simply wouldn't work in practise. The thing with the other parties is you can look at their policies and see that there is some inherent logic in them. You may not like what they are proposing, but there is enough substance to them to be able to make a coherent argument for and against. The BNP, however, seem to have a list of statements rather than policies, with no facts or figures to back them up, other than the faint whiff of menace.

I think it is interesting that daftpunk has been unable to say why she thinks any of the BNP's policies are in any way sensible.

I will be very surprised if NG is able to come across as anything other than a racist thug, having looked at the BNP's website. They do not even TRY to dress up their policies in anything that sounds remotely eloquent - as I said yesterday they look like a bunch of vigilante thugs, which is what they are.

Their policies are formed on the basis of propaganda, xenophobic hatred and intolerance and all the things that appeal to the most evil bases of our humanity.

Which is perhaps why daftpunk has not, as yet been able to come up with a reasonable response as to why she would vote for them....

"i don't want them running the country...but i want them in parliament"

But supposing a lot of people think the same way and get them into Parliament, so there are enough to run the country.

A friend of yours then confides to you one day that her husband forces himself upon her every night, but she can't say no because the BNP have changed the law and he could divorce her for that, and get the children.

Another friend is raped one night by a mutual friend who you then see down the pub boasting about it. He was let off by the Police as due to the BNP rape is no longer a crime as it's just like force feeding a woman chocolate. He sees you leave the pub and starts to head out the door himself.

Your local corner ship is run by someone who's Indian grandparents emigrated here in the 1940s. The Grandfather fought for the British army and has a number of medals of which he is justifiably proud. His family are being harassed nightly by thugs while the BNP local authority are offering him money to go "home". His grandfather is distraught that he fought and his friends died for the Country that now wants him gone.

Your child comes home from school with his new history book that tells him that the Holocaust never happened, that it was all a Jewish conspiracy to trick themselves a homeland. He tells you that he hates the Jews for the lies they've told about the honourable Nazi party.

The BNP check your family history and find out that your Great Grandparent was an immigrant. If he had a white skin that would be a problem, but he didn't, he was an Indian who worked for the civil service. Suddenly you're not British enough and are asked to go "home".

Daftpunk do you accept all of those things happening?

If you do, then well you might very well be a Fascist but you're choice of voting BNP at least makes sense.

If you don't then why on earth vote and support those people who would do all of this?

You'd want all of those negative things to happen just so that one issue that does concern you is addressed? And addressed in a very radical way. And possibly addressed in a way that would see you sent away too...

Biased? In what way? It is based on factual data from proper research projects. Were you surprised then that immigrants are GIVING more economically than they are TAKING?

Of course it was biased. They asked questions and in 8 out of 10 cases the correct answer was the one that was most favourable towards immigrants. That was the same score I got, I just chose the most favourable option in every case. And in the two cases where you got the answer wrong, they would come back with something like 'Actually black footballers have been around MUCH longer than that'.

The quiz has its points to push, and it does so.

If it had been the BNP website, they could have done a similar 'quiz', based on factual data, with questions along the lines of:

'How many times more likely are black Caribbean to commit crimes than the indigenous population'

You could easily source such a quiz to articles like this: news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4946988.stm (foreign prisoners)
and this
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/4442646.stm (birth defect rate among British Pakistanis (13 times higher than the general population, due to cousin marriage))

It would likewise be 'factual', but surely you wouldn't say it was unbiased? Selectively selecting 'evidence' is a perfect route to plausible bias.

Why should DP have to justify in great detail her beliefs and understanding of BNP manifesto to say what she does?

I'm looking forward to Electra and VW doing the same-can they demonstrate to us a truly in depth understanding of the ploitical viewpoints they adhere to?

Badger's Paws, re this bit, can you tell me how you know this is fact?

The BNP check your family history and find out that your Great Grandparent was an immigrant. If he had a white skin that would be a problem, but he didn't, he was an Indian who worked for the civil service. Suddenly you're not British enough and are asked to go "home".

Daftpunk

I posted this yesterday.

"You always - in my experience - do something along these lines, Daft Punk. You bang on about how great and misunderstood the BNP are; then "fools" like me challenge you on this and you start instead banging on about how they have their rights like everyone else and how they are a legitimate political party; and you never once appear to stop and question what it says about you or anyone else to support a party that subjugates women, denies the Holocaust, discriminates against people you know (on here if not in RL) and is driven by hate.

In 1930s and 40s Germany, the National Socialists were not only a legal, respectable party; they were essentially the ONLY legal, respectable party.

And it still didn't make them any more or less than fascists, racists and murderers, and it didn't stop people who endorsed their politics being any more or less than the enablers and apologists of fascists, racists and murderers.

Forget the rights and wrongs for ten seconds. Is this really what you want to be identified with?"

Any thoughts? You're now seeming uncomfortable with the idea of being called a fascist. Are you really the same as the way you paint yourself on here?

Moondog - you really think people should be allowed to be fascist and racist without any challenge?? Fascism is dangerous, frightening and it should be challenged every time because 'policies' peddled by the BNP are based upon lies, hatred and propaganda.

I have a responsibility to protect my children from growing up surrounded by the evil of fascism and I make no apology for expecting those who believe in it to explain themselves.

She's absolutely right though MIFLAW and that's something you seem to fail to grasp in your quest for parity for the oppressed.

And Electras, what an impossibly pompous post.

You alone, saving us all eh from nasty ole NG?

Absolutely right about what, moondog?

I'd like to think I could moondog. I'm not haranguing her; I'm engaging in a debate that she wanted to engage in.

Someguy, well of course it is biased. I didn't actually say it wasn't, I asked DP what she meant by that.

And of course it has a point to push - it is from the Institute of RR.

But why wouldn't I push anyone on their beliefs and present what I believe to be factual evidence to the contrary? If we agree there are no such things as preponderant 'facts' on these matters (because clearly you would select some just as biased as mine), then we're all free to do so. I'd counter your media reports with questions about why, for example, black men commit more crimes.

That is what reasoned debate is for isn't it?

But I don't think the BNP are remotely interested in anything factual, except the things they agree with. Perhaps we're all like this, but I'd like to think academic data still have some valid independent status.

Or are you going to differ on that point too?

2shoes quick hi jack i got your email but something wrong with my mail atm so couldn't reply.All well here xx

Moondog - you did not answer my question;

Do you think racism and fascism should go unchallenged?

And I'd be happy to justify my own position, except...voting for the BNP is in no way like voting Labour or Tory as others have said.

Answer came there none.

"Badger's Paws, re this bit, can you tell me how you know this is fact?

The BNP check your family history and find out that your Great Grandparent was an immigrant. If he had a white skin that would be a problem, but he didn't, he was an Indian who worked for the civil service. Suddenly you're not British enough and are asked to go "home"."

The BNP have is as one of their cornerstone ideas that they will "encourage" voluntary repatriation of "non-whites".

Furthermore the BNP doesn't believe that a person of mixed race is white, "when whites take partners from other ethnic groups, a white family line that stretches back into deep pre-history is destroyed."

So the family stopped being white when the first mixed race child is born, and non-whites will be pushed to repatriate.

As far as I know the BNP haven't clarified exactly when a family line might be considered white again, if ever. Nick Griffin is more than a bit cagey on revealing his family history....

It's worth noting that the apartheid regime in South Africa operated a "one drop" policy, meaning one non-white ancestor makes you non-white.

The SS in Nazi Germany had to prove "Aryan Purity" going back to 1750.

With such precedents it's hard to imagine the BNP being any less forgiving (not that having a non-white ancestor is a thing that should be forgiven, personally I hope that we all end up inter-marrying so this silly racism thing can just go away).

So if you have non-white ancestors you need to be worried about the BNP, not that anyone with an ounce of the Christian Compassion that the BNP claim to defend shouldn't already be concerned with them.

"Why should DP have to justify in great detail her beliefs and understanding of BNP manifesto to say what she does?"

Well she doesn't have to.

However I'm desperately hoping that DP is unhappy with immigration and hasn't given much thought to the full implications that voting for the BNP might bring about.

Imagine if the BNP got in, the country is ripped apart, loved ones are sent away, history is changed and poor DP has to stand their saying "well I didn't know this would happen!" as she's loaded onto a plane due to having an Indian great-great-grandfather.

Badger, no I want to know how you know that this is a fact rather than an assumption of yours.

Rofl at Electra's question. It's rather like the old chestnut 'And when did you last stop beating your wife?'

It's the self righteous indignation of people (most of whom are white and middle class) that irritates most.

I lvoe the way the BNP is challenged and villified for things that many other political parties get away with on a daily basis.

It is very naive of people to take the BNP at face value - I know that to most decent people they are abhorrent even at face value but they are very much brothers of the KKK and of those who inflicted apartheid on South Africa. Even debating their policies is giving them more respect than they deserve.