Conservative proposals to freeze public sector pay-what do we think??

[MavisEnderby]

Good idea or not?

I very rarely have to work through the night, and when I do it is usually because I am unorganised. I was just trying to make the point that most jobs with a decent salary have to occasionally make unreasonable demands.

In return for working very long hours term time ( with the option to simply stop if I get tired) I get more than a few free days off. I have just had seven weeks and in a few weeks I will have another week in which I am planning to do very little.

Atlantis - in this day and age it's astonishing that the Tory front bench is as socially narrow as it was a century ago!

There are plenty of lovely people who happen to be posh, and plenty with a social conscience - but the idea that the only people judged good enough to hold a ministerial post in the next government were all educated in public school is rather scary.

good on them,atlantis. am I right in guessing they are not all members of the conservative cabinet?

or should I say, shadow cabinet. shudder - might be cabinet soon enough

The public sector is massively less productive than the private sector.

" but the idea that the only people judged good enough to hold a ministerial post in the next government were all educated in public school is rather scary. "

Oh come on Edam that's a page right out of HH book of 'don't look at me i'm not really well educated or have connections'.

Let's face the facts that Labour or Conservative they have generally all been to university, they have all been relatively well educated be it eton or brighton, I don't see mrsX from the local chippy getting boosted up the rankings, although a certain leader of the conservatives was a grocers daughter and the leader of labour is a son of a *** (have to be nice!).

I think you need to look at how well the team works and frankly the Labour team not only can't stand the sight of each other and have the knives out they are all thoroughly burned out.

I think with the exception of Ken Clarke ( Mr EU the team work pretty damn well together, they are a leadership.

Considering the rate of inflation currently a pay freeze for one year will not hurt us greatly. As long as real costs of living do not go up significantly we will be ok. But can that be guaranteed? Surely, if the economy begins to recover costs will go up and we will be stuck living on the salaries of this year, which are worth far less than they should be due to years of below inflation pay rises.
The supposed benefits of public sector work are umm...more holidays (I get 27pa including 2 days over xmas, increased this year after 5 years' service, will not go up ever again) Good salary (I earn 28k full time which is the top of my pay scale, I have a degree) pensions (well until I pay off my debts I can't afford to pay into a pension) job security (will give you that since I'm a front line worker and they cannot reduce jobs in my area without breaking the law regarding the children act). The only benefit to my job is job security, which is not insignificant, but not sufficient to swap for being pushed into relative poverty.

I'm sick of the view that public sector is such a cushy ride. I made the equivalent full time salary of 29,000 per year with a science PhD and had annual raises that were always LESS than the increase in my nursery fees making me worse off each year. In the private sector I'd be looking at about 20K more a year, you can fund a much better pension with that than my final salary one. I've acutally quit work and am doing the SAHM thing for a while because on top of earning almost no money, our department was not a easy place to work. We were constantly understaffed, moral is horrible, our budgets are being slashed, and I was having to put my kids in a nursery where they were being bullied. I couldn't afford a nanny or one of the more exclusive nurseries so our options were limited.

I am a public sector worker...and seriously folks, you MUST have seen this coming? The choices are stark - we either close the door, turn out the lights and discontinue services (and jobs) altogether, or we look at either solutions. Like pay freezes.

(There are almost certainly going to be mass job losses as well tbh, but at least this might make it a smaller number.)

Doesn't matter who you vote for on this issue - they will all have to do something very similar to balance the books.

atlantis - the Labour cabinet includes a mix of people. From Harriet Harman, public school, to Alan Johnson, who grew up in a council flat and left school at 15 or 16. Meanwhile the Tories come from a very narrow range of backgrounds - the very top public schools and some of them even the same Oxford colleges!

Even if I were inclined to vote Tory, that would give me pause for thought. It's astonishing that in the 21st century we are actually contemplating a return to government by the old ruling classes.

As for productivity, it's a pretty rough and ready measure that is set up to measure industrial output - applying it to the public sector is not really comparing like with like. Agreed, there are probably too many managers and not enough frontline staff in areas such as social services.

But equally far too much has been spent on PFI/PPP schemes that hand over vast amounts of money to the private sector. And extortionate management consultants from the private sector, whose recommendations waste huge amounts of money in constant reorganisation and demand more managers and more managerial systems are put in place.

Look at the NHS and the time and resources wasted on redefining commissioning, on developing primary care groups and then turning them into primary care trusts and then reorganising PCTs something like three times now (am losing count).

Currently being reorganised again to hive off community services from commissioning on the advice of management consultants - who seem not to notice that Sainsburys manages to sell Heinz as well as own brand baked beans perfectly well. So much time and money is being wasted moving the deckchairs around merely to create some artificial split between stuff the NHS does and stuff the NHS plans to do. That's just one example!

edam - Davd Milliband went to an Oxford college. He was there with me. Ed Balls did too a few years later, as did his wife. Tony Blair went to an Oxford college. No doubt there are others I hav eforgotten. Even Prescott went to Ruskin college in Oxford.

dh is public sector, i'm private. his annual pay rise has always been about double mine in terms of percentage.

his department are allocated an overtime budget which they make sure they spend. this is commonly an extra third on top of everyone's basic, for some who can turn in the hours they ear as much in overtime as in basic. where i am we are salaried and have to take it as TOIL, or effectively not at all.

if he works over his contracted hours his whopping overtime rate kicks in plus time owing. for me i'm contracted to about 20 hours a week, anything over that upto 45 hours is basic rate(taken as TOIL).

he is amazed when i go on courses or meetings away or whatever we pay for our own lunch. he has full catering laid on. there is a huge amount of waste in his department. i benefit from it though, if we want a weekend away, he slows his pace down, turns in a bit of overtime, and hey presto, couple of hundred quid extra comes in. no one seems to check his productivity rate, efficiency, or whether the overtime is needed.

yes Abetadad, that's the point - the Labour cabinet is and has been a mixture of social classes. But you are being naughty trying to portray Ruskin as part of the University of Oxford. You know perfectly well it is independent and exists to educate adults who have no or few educational qualifications.

'you were considering voting for them expat?????? '

I was on a pretty high dose of anti-depressants and another drug for rampant insomnia, south .

I work in the public sector and obviously would rather there wasn't a pay freeze.

But, I have to say there aren't many private sector jobs where I would be off for 16 weeks of the year (term-time only in a college), be able to set my own timetable (so I can drop DD at school and collect her) and earn as much as I do.

Therefore, as long as pay doesn't decrease, I'll find it quite hard to complain.

Monsterspam - I think that is one of the things people do forget about the public sector. Terms and conditions of work are generally better and more flexible.

Having been a management cosultant in both private and public sector the contrast in how hard people work is staggering. Not at all surprised by the low level of productivity in the public sector. Some public sector jobs are very high stress high intensity of course but having observed many office bound bureaucratic public sector jobs it was clear that days used to go by with virtually nothing been done in some of the offices I worked in. Just a lot of meetings.

Pay freezing people who earn the relatively low wage of £18,000 is only acceptable if they sort the other end too. So if GO said he was going to tax bonuses rather than just that he's thinking about it, well maybe it's okay. As it is nah. Not fair and penalising folk who shouldn't be.

My DH as always worked in the private sector (engineering).
He is in his late 50's and has a degree.He has always been 'salaried' or on staff. He has never been paid for the many hours he as worked overtime and he's never had time off in lieu if weekend work has been required.If extra hours were needed to get the job done on time he did it.He now gets 25 days holiday per year + BHs. He built this up over the years and he's on maximum holidays.

Pay wise I would say he was on a par with friends & relatives who are/were teachers, policemen, etc.

He's never earned mega bucks but others always assumed he did because he worked in the private sector. He also got so many more perks.....ie free diaries, calendars, pens, the odd pub meal(soft drinks only).If drank any thing else he would risk his job.
He also worked abroad at times. Unfortunately usually away from tourist areas.....Large factories. He often worked nights and tried to sleep in the hotel (never 5 star!)during the day. He could claim expenses but only with receipts. He was also away from DCs for extended periods sometimes at Christmas and over their summer hols.

The main difference now between him and friends in the private sector is that they have retired in early or mid 50's on a very good pension and he is still working.

Who ever gets in at the next at the next election lower to middle earners will suffer most they always do. Industrial workers suffered most last time may well be the public sector this time.

ruddynorah, your dh's department or employer isn't exactly typical of the public sector. I've temped in several private firms where at that time tea/coffee and other refreshments were provided by the company - I've never worked in a public sector office where that's been the case. In one job my boss and his boss, the deputy head and head of department, had lots of meetings where refreshments would be reasonably expected (mostly with private sector lawyers and companies taking on council contracts) and we were using our personal tea and coffee supplies mostly paid for by the other PA and me for those meetings.

Others have indicated that they're already in the position that I may well be driven to under cuts proposed by all the political parties. I won't have much left of my wages when I've paid childcare, fares and other costs, how will our sums add up when both dp and I face a pay cut in real terms.

And all the smug private sector workers who think they must be worth more than us in the public sector, how much of your employer's income/profits or whatever actually come directly or indirectly from the public sector? For example, contracts with councils or the NHS, or money spent in local cafes and shops. And we pay taxes too, in fact dodging my council tax would be a sackable offence.

By jellybrain Tue 06-Oct-09 21:37:33 Add a message | Report post | Contact poster

CAn we have some evidence that Public Sector workers generally have more holiday, better pay and pensions than everyone else?

Here is part of the evidence, collated from the Office of National Statistics.

Median public sector wages were £523 per week in April 2008 and the private sector wages were £460 per week, for full time employees. At the mean, the figures were closer, public sector £582 and private sector was £573.

Of course, the ONS deals with averages, and we all know that some individuals can earn huge salaries in the private sector. That is why the private sector mean is more right skewed, reflecting the wider variation between the low paid and highest earners.

However, the fact that wages are higher in the public sector does mean that a pay freeze is not unreasonable, given the fact that the public purse is going further into the red.

I think the idea stinks. Why should public sector workers be penalised for bankers' failures (and their pay (bankers)is on the rise again). No household or other bill stands still, so why should public sector pay? The idea that I have a pay freeze to protect my job security is a total red herring. If my job goes, it goes - regardless of a pay rise. What is more, public sectir workers are amongst the worst paid to begin with.

I am sick to death of paying for greedy bankers' failures and governments' inability to properly regulate the banking sector.

Am totally opposed to a pay freeze, I don't notice my council tax, tv licence, water tax, rent, car tax, food prices, electricity and gas prices and childcare going down so why on earth should I be worse off? Mind you, Labour will be taking my childcare vouchers off me, so I'm off the research lib dems!

Why are private sector workers smug elkiedee?
DH as never had tea, coffee, etc. provided by his employer.He pays into tea fund every month and if customers visit the office they are offered tea or coffee( for free). That's just being polite! Sometimes if a customer is in the office for several hours they send out for snadwiches or nip out for a pub lunch.Yes firm does pay for this! It doesn't happen often. I've worked in schools and been sent on training courses. Food and drink were always provided and I never had to pay. Not sure if the school did.

Also people who work in the private sector do have to pay for fares, childcare etc! And my DH along with many others will not be getting a pay rise this year. He's not had a rise for 3 years. His firm simply can't afford it. That is also a pay cut in real terms!

Can only reiterate what has been said - the private sector are having to lay off workers, shorten hours and freeze pay as emplyers can't afford not to.

The public sector must have to do the same as its employer can no longer afford it.
Hopefully there won't need to be too many redundancies.

What's the alaternative? Ask the tax payer 3/4 workers to shore up the gap at a time when they are already feeling it much harder.

indiechick - it is hard, but your employer simply can't afford to give you a pay rise.
Simple economics.