lisobon treaty: irish how do you plan to vote?others how would you vote if given the chance?

[mayorquimby]

well?
i'm still up in the air,one of the undecideds. i feel the yes vote would probably be best for ireland and feel that the "vote no" side (libertas etc) are completely scare mongering in their campaign, but really want to vote no because i think this is one of the great attempts to circumvent the ideal of comon democracy hich was surely at the heart of the european experiment.

i'm no fan of the EU....but think the yes vote is good for Ireland...they really need Europes help....they have been living off the back of Riverdance for 15 years...

but the worst part of this is they were made to vote again...

I wonder how many yes voters actually bothered to read the treaty in full and understand just what they have signed up to.

Or lets put it another way, when your new masters decide that they need conscripts to fight in a war in god knows where don't be too surprised when your sons and daughters are pulled from their beds and dragged off for training and then deployed.

When your farmers are told not to plant their fields because other eu states have an abundance of food this season and you'll be paying a higher price to ship it in country.

And as for your laws which you claim to have opted out, the treaty says the eu has the right to change and make sure all member states comply with it's laws.

Are you joking daftpunk?? riverdance made money for michael flatley who is american.

Ireland was doing as well as anywhere else during the good times, but the government didn't make any of the right precautions for the inevitable down turn. They weren't anticipating such a bad downturn so soon. (I suppose that's their excuse).

Atlantis, I was aware of that, but I think the % of conscripts Ireland would be required to send wouldn't be out of synch with the population. Ireland has always sent a number of soldiers to the hotspots... A small percentage but they've always 'contributed' to peacekeeping abroad.

Those are troops already signed up to fight.

When europe decides that they want all able bodied men and women to service it's army are national service becomes the norm don't say you weren't warned to vote no.

And when europe decided that ireland needs a strong military peacekeeping force if troubles flare up again don't be surprised when you open the curtains in the morning and they are walking down your road.

It's all in the treaty you just have to look for it.

Yeah but that's all worst case scenario stuff.

The financial crisis is not a worst case scenario. It's definitely happened. WE definitely need help. We have definitely benefited from being in Europe before.

We have to pick the lesser of two evils you could say and when making the decision I made it on the basis of a certainty (Ireland's economy being fucked) than a possibility (conscription). I'd like to see them do that!!! I mean, soldiers who signed up for it, yeah, they'd go where they were told to go that's their job. But the average geezer is not going to be told by anybody to go into the middle of a war zone. The average geezer wouldn't even vote yes cos he was told.

Yeah but that's all worst case scenario stuff.

The financial crisis is not a worst case scenario. It's definitely happened. WE definitely need help. We have definitely benefited from being in Europe before.

We have to pick the lesser of two evils you could say and when making the decision I made it on the basis of a certainty (Ireland's economy being fucked) than a possibility (conscription). I'd like to see them do that!!! I mean, soldiers who signed up for it, yeah, they'd go where they were told to go that's their job. But the average geezer is not going to be told by anybody to go into the middle of a war zone. The average geezer wouldn't even vote yes cos he was told.

It's a very shortsighted answer.

It's not like a tap, once your in and it's ratified by all states that's it, what europe says goes.

Under conscription people do not have the right to say no, as per the world wars, when you were called to arms you went, it wasn't a choice.

We all need help, but once you have sold your soul to the devil, he's not likely to give it back to you.

We fought two world wars to stop this from happening and now it's being done with money and bribes not bullets.

lol maggie...an Irish American is even better....Ireland have been living off The Quiet Man for 50 years...!

'It's not 'abrogating' more power to the EU. It's making it run more efficiently with 27 member states rather than 15.'

Hallo? What makes you think it is running any differently than it did before? As my dh just remarked - the EU isn't about democracy (well, we can see that, the Irish are being made to vote again, as their first result didn't please the Eurocrats), it's about socialism and the expansion of a European ideal as opposed to being individual nations.

So, welcome President Blair (FRance and Germany ahve agreed to this as long as they get plum jobs) and to a new EU Foreign ministry (already well en route to being set up) which will take over from any foreign policy a member state may have.

Let's hope the Poles and the Czechs can hold out until the UK election, and then when Labour are out WE can have a referendum and kybosh this bloody treaty once and for all.

Atlantis, there will not be a standing EU Army...anyway, all the member states in the EU are nearly all members of, or partners for peace members of NATO, and their troops are committed there. The EU have policing/peacekeeping roles, as NATO does all the heavy lifting anyway.

Read the treaty again.

And everyone agrees NATO is toothless and finished.

Better conscription in years to come than irelands usual version of 'neutrality'.... we won't take sides but we'll give help to whichever country our politicians are trying to buddy up to. I don't see much neutrality in allowing american planes to refuel here, or keeping Nazi soldiers well fed and clothes in nicely tended little villages and mingling with local populations and even marrying local women

But aside from that is the fact that the conscription rumours are just that.... foundless rumours.

Scaryteacher, you won't be getting a treaty. we only had to have one because it's in our constitution (which I wish would be amended - don't wan tto have to go through this everytime they rejig it)

ATlantis, so do you make ordinary everyday decisions on the basis that there could be a world war at any second??? are the rest of us mad to make decisions on the optimistic basis that with any luck there won't be a wolrd war. A financial collapse is bad enough!

maggie.... take away the irish citizans right to procrasinate, ponder and completely misinterprete the facts? there'd be war!

we could be conscripted in to fight eachother!

Oh, hang on!

i really would like to see anyone try and force a scumbag from the limerick estates or ballymun to join an army.... you'd need the entire army you were trying to force them to join to draft them in fgs!

If somebody did succeed in dragging the likes of Arlo Hyland into a peacekeeping mission there'd be no chance of peace!! everyone would be gunrunning and addicted to crack in about ten minutes.

Only two constituencies voted against it and turnout highest on EU ref since q. of whether to join in first place.

Declan Ganley on Brian Cowen was very funny.

Maggie _ I presume you meant referendum as from the looks of it, I'm landed with the bloody treaty!

Atlantis - I know serving officers who work in the EU Military Staff and NATO. NATO is neither toothless nor finished, and the EU Military Staff is one of the smallest sections in the European Council. Plans for an EU Military HQ have been permanently shelved. The only difference between the EU and NATO militarily is the US involvement in NATO, and that Turkey is not a member of the EU, and is in NATO.

The Treaty can say it wants a Standing Army - but it is all a load of bull as the troops who would make this up are in Afghanistan fighting under the NATO umbrella. Each member state has a finite number of troops, and most have national and NATO commitments before they even look at EU commitments. If the EU wanted UK troops tomorrow, we couldn't do it, full stop.

Let's hope Messers Cameron and Hague have a good idea on how to get the UK out of this treaty - ignoring it when they are in power might be a start.

I have to say I have enjoyed the whole 'Ireland's difficulty is England's opportunity' vibe on this thread ...

I missed Ganley on Cowen though. What did he have to say for himself? He reminds me of Terry Venables with his morally dubious / v. entertaining media persona

Good for the irish & for the eu.