lisobon treaty: irish how do you plan to vote?others how would you vote if given the chance?

[mayorquimby]

well?
i'm still up in the air,one of the undecideds. i feel the yes vote would probably be best for ireland and feel that the "vote no" side (libertas etc) are completely scare mongering in their campaign, but really want to vote no because i think this is one of the great attempts to circumvent the ideal of comon democracy hich was surely at the heart of the european experiment.

EldonAVe, unfortunately a lot of people are going to vote no to "show" the government.

What will that show them!?!?!

I'm currently living in Ireland, but am Scottish and, therefore, unable to vote.

I find it quite shocking that Ireland had already voted on this, and because the outcome wasn't what was wanted they were asked to vote again - hoping this time they would manage to get the right answer this time round.

I haven't seen the posters which some of you are describing about killing babies - sounds horrific, what a brilliant way to get your ideas across

We have had countless leaflets through the door, telling us to vote this way or the other. DP looked over one of the leaflets and said that basically they were scaremongering. He said that none of the reasons for voting NO were standing up as real reasons. He said they were picking things and blowing them out of proportion in the hope that people wouldn't understand the terminology and go along with them.

One of the posters we have seen all over the town is one saying that Ireland's power in Europe will be 0.8% - they are claiming that it would be larger if they voted NO. Dp says that the power they have in the EU is dependent on the size of the country and the amount of people living in it. So because Germany is a bigger country, they have more power etc - this is how DP understands it from reading up about it.

It all seems a bit daft. But I feel sorry for the Irish people at having to vote again, because they got it wrong last time.

I was in Ireland at the time of voting last time, and like many of you feel it is insulting that they are asking the irish people to vote again. I still think a lot of people will vote no just because they are annoyed.

I'll be voting yes, as I did the last time on purely pragmatic grounds.

We do not need anything else to complicate the financial situation. The whole nama-drama is quite enough without bringing the wrath of Europe down on our heads.

The Irish voted No last time. That should have been enough to stop this dead. The fact that you are having to vote again should perhaps tell you something about how democracy is perceived by the unelected Eurocrats - that is, they don't want it to stand in their way. What will they do if the Irish vote no again? Have another vote of course. What the people want doesn't matter.

The EU scares me and has done so for along time. It is an unaccountable behemoth that doesn't give value for money (why a Parliament at Strasbourg as well as here in Brussels?), and is opaque in its aims. I have no problem with being part of a loose federation of trading states; but I dislike intensely the federalist creep and agenda that are happening. I am English,(or a Brit if English is too parochial) I don't want to be an homogonised European.

The anti-EU English voters on here have asked no questions about the specifics of Irish domestic politics.

So while they would like the EU to go away so that they can make local decisions for local people, they are asking Irish voters to put their neck out for anti-EU voters Europe-wide, regardless of the risks of Ireland heading into bankruptcy without EU support.

Well said, RedLentil. I was repulsed when I found out that ghastly Nigel Farage and his ghastly UKIP party have been campaigning for the NO vote in Ireland.

Why would Irish domestic politics concern us?
You are supposed to be voting on the Lisbon Treaty

Well, the outcome of the Lisbon vote will affect our position on global markets when it comes to borrowing to manage our enormous deficit. So our 'no' will impact on us negatively even if it gives you what you want.

If you really passionately believe that people should privilege domestic concerns over European ones, then inviting the Irish to be European first in this election, and to selflessly set aside domestic interests, seems disingenuous to me.

I am well aware I am voting on the Lisbon treaty by the way. But to pretend that the outcome of my vote will solely affect the political status of the EU would be ridiculous.

So do you feel Ireland is being held to ransom over this? Are you happy to be voting again?

WEll I think it proves that our constitution needs to be amended to bypass the need for a pointless and expensive series of referenda.

REally all the parties are in favour of ratifying this treaty and yet, the no force are out in strenth, peddling some ludicrous myths. Like for example, that voting no is a way to prevent NAMA.

It is not. NAMA is going to go ahead with or without a yes vote.

All these sinister motives have been attributed to a yes vote, when it's just to help the EU function better with 27 member states than with 15 member states. THat's the gist of it.

MayorQuimby, is Ireland going to have to go through this every time?!?! It will drive me crazy. Democracy is one thing and obviously I'm in favour of democracy, but when the electorate are so obtuse as to vote no just make a point about democracy, then I think we need to be PROTECTED from democracy by amending our constitution !!!

it's an interesting question but surely even you can see the danger in what your saying. to paraphrase (and i'm playing devils advocate here beause by and large i agree with you on the need for a yes vote) that we some how need to by-pass democracy because the electorate keep giving us an answer we don't want because they want their opinions to be heard?can't exactly be a good route to go because it's too dangerous.
i agree that a lot of people will vote no to voice local displeasure at the govt and with no fore thought to what the actal treaty is about. but the idea that democracy,even if it is somehow being abused by the electorate (altough i'm not sure how that's possible), should somehow be by-passed is too open for abuse.

Yes, I know you're right. I just fear for the future. I never voted for Fianna Fail either. And here we are with a Fianna Fail government, a possible no vote majority.... and I never voted for any of it!!

But yes, I hear you, I can't go around saying that I want to silence the plebian masses!

We'll be kicked out of the euro. We'll get the turd. There'll be 1,000,000 turds to the euro.

Other countries don't need to vote on this though, and their democracy wouldn't be seen as inferior to ours would it ?

Eldon, the treaty was negotiated under Ireland's presidency of the EU. Having already secured a good a deal as a small country was going to get it has now secured further concessions.

I don't think we are being held to ransom.
I think the yes campaign assumed they would win last time and didn't put a cogent case, or in fact any case, together.

Maggie's question about having referenda for this kind of thing is a valid one, I think. Not because there was an uncomfortable result but because they are unwieldy, not fit for purpose and expensive.

A vote on Nama would make a lot more sense ...

Obtuse and plebian? This is exactly what people are taking offence over..

We are at a huge risk of losing (if not all ready being denied) our democratic right to vote!

You are right that people should be voting for the matter at hand and not for local domestic situations - but who should be able to rule that this is not what people are voting for? And that the result that was given was not the right one?

mayorquimby is very right when she says that this is a dangerous route to be travelling down.

Well then ThePrettiestStar, please vote yes.

Ireland has in the past benefitted hugely from being in Europe. We are the poor man of Europe again.

This treaty is to make the EU more 'workable'. We have opt outs built in to protact our stance on abortion (ffs, but that's another thread).

As for 'obtuse' imo, if somebody is voting no to "show" the government and not because they believe that no is the right vote, then that IS obtuse.

I was joking with MQ when I made the tongue in cheek comment about the plebian masses. I was saying I didn't want to come across as sounding like that.

Yes RedLentil, a vote on Nama would be nice!!

I'd love to see those apartments put on the market at their real market value, I'd be able to BUY one. My brothers would be fucked with their negative equity though!!

I pretty much agree with you Maggie34Behave and had this been the first vote would not have had any problems with what you are saying.

I still do agree with you deep down. It's just the whole process that preleads this vote.

What happens if in the future we make another "wrong decision" - do we carry on having votes until we agree with the powers that be?

I think we have to regard it as a separate issue. I mean, even though I voted yes the first time, and in one way I am glad we have another 'chance' to get the result which will benefit Ireland, it's also been a huge expense in itself just holding another referendum. Maybe we should have just lived with the consequences of the no vote.

The government would then be able to blame everything on the no result. Which is what they'll do no doubt!

I know we're basically up the creek without a paddle whichever way we look at it, but voting no is a bit like being churlish to your only wealthy relative when you haven't a pot to piss in!!

Well I would really like to know what D Cameron put in his letter to the czech government, he knows he's going to be the next PM so what has he offered them too hold out?

Did he do the same with the Irish government?

And if Ireland vote yes will that lead to strained relations between the next UK government and Ireland?

All the major political parties here are pro-Lisbon atlantis so doubt there has been any effect.

And, because there is nowhere else for me to put this small nugget of drivel, can I ask if anyone else is a bit amazed that Aer Lingus have got away with their 'coincidental' pro-Lisbon ad in the weeks running up to the election?

Only one European flight being promoted on TV ads on RTE- come to Lisbon, lovely Lisbon. Ooh isn't Lisbon cool etc?

As you were.

Just watching the fireman from eastenders on tv talking about lisbon treaty as gaelige. All I can think of is, did he use those lines on sharon/?

phil Mitchell as gaeilge on the Lisbon treaty? jaysus

I'm irish I was "at home" when UKIP decided to stick their oar in and guarantee a yes vote. Really guys talk about an own goal!

If I were still living in Ireland and entitled to a say I'd vote yes. The Eu paid for the handy motorway from the airport to my parents house (nearly), my university education, various erasmus trips, helped the push for extended maternity leave, the environmental laws that created the sector I work in the list goes on and on and on

no no, remember the irish guy. he was a fireman and he had an ex wife who supposed to be unhinged and he couldn't leave her. He died in a huge fire in Mo's house around abut the time of mad trevor.

( shit programme!! don't watch it anymore.

the n11. All hail the n11!