lisobon treaty: irish how do you plan to vote?others how would you vote if given the chance?

[mayorquimby]

well?
i'm still up in the air,one of the undecideds. i feel the yes vote would probably be best for ireland and feel that the "vote no" side (libertas etc) are completely scare mongering in their campaign, but really want to vote no because i think this is one of the great attempts to circumvent the ideal of comon democracy hich was surely at the heart of the european experiment.

What I want to know is what it would take to make Irish people stop voting for Fianna Fail?

I don't know, DP. It's a problem for you, I expect.

agree completely LadyGlencoraPalliser

Yes there's nothing like a scary crying child to put your point across rationally!

I think the crux of the matter is that I don't like the fact that Ireland has basically been patted on the head, told that we didn't understand it properly the first time, to go away think about it carefully and make the right choice next time....

I'm not sure what I will decide in time for tomorrow.

nothings a problem for me LGP...apart from talking to people who are up their own arse

But TPS, given that both sides are full of shit voting on the basis of how you feel about the issue is the only way to go.
I know my mum voted no last time purely as a protest vote against the government, rather than because of you she really felt about the treaty. She's voting yes this time, because that's how she would have voted the first time if her anti-government sentiments hadn't got in the way.

"I think we all have to be careful not to vote no simply to express dissatisfaction at the current government or Brian Cowen etc, instead of voting no from our own opinions etc, if you know what I mean. Have a feeling this will happen though.
"

huge huge chance of this happening.i agree it would be stupid to do this,as blind as the people who repeatedly laud sur bertie as a decent skin etc simply because they like his chancer character.
i think the mjority of people will be voting based on local/national isues regarding the current govt. rather than thinking about it in the broader terms of what it means to ireland in euroe as a whole.

pjnktulips,i agree,there wll never be a constitution which suits everyone,but the attempts of the political powers to circumvent any sort of democratic practice by asking the people they are elected to represent is one of the most contemptuos acts of politics i have ever seen from the supposedly evolved community of europe.
the only argument for this method seems to be "well if we put it to the people of europe they'd turn it down", surely that should be a reason to not go through with it or ratify it to the point where you could get it passed even if that meant relinquishing certain powers. but most certainly the response to the citizens of europe not wanting something should not be "ok,well how can we remove the citizens wants and decision making powers from the equation so we can do it anyway"

and daftpunk did the UK not take a vote on wether to join the eu or not,that's interesting. i'm pretty sure ireland did but it was before i was born so am not positive.

I voted yes last time, but like I have said, this has really turned my stomach. No doubt I will be making an objective decision when it comes to it.

Marking my place, I'm Irish but don't vote there and I don't feel I understand the issue well enough anyway.

I am really interested in reading every Irish person's opinion on this, so will be hanging around.

Oh and completely agree LGP re Fianna Fail!

"I think the crux of the matter is that I don't like the fact that Ireland has basically been patted on the head, told that we didn't understand it properly the first time, to go away think about it carefully and make the right choice next time"

one of my main problems as well.
as i said from early on, i have no problem with the LT as a stand alone document. i think it's pragmatic and good for europe as a whole which in turn will benefit ireland.
what i have a problem with is the method of it's application,which i believe to be completely against the majority of european citizens, although i can't know this for sure because the EU is not letting them to have their say,which in essence is my main problem.
it seems to be a case of the institutions and politicians saying "we know best,we don't need your opinion" and working for the EU state. when the point of a democratic community is that the state works for the will of the people and not the other way around.

tbh MQ; ..i don't think it was put to a vote...i think it was just decided.....? sure LGP will put me right..

I don't know - following Ireland voting NO first time (for all the wrong reasons) is there an argument for NOT taking it to the people? Just playing devil's advocate here.

I would like to think that if I was voting I would ensure I was well-enough informed to make the right decision, but equally the treaty is pretty complex so maybe not everyone is equipped to make the right decision for the good of Europe?

Sitting on the fence here.

I can't exactly remember if entry was voted on in the beginning but I still remember the slogans "into Europe, Out of work, no EEC". I am old.

Mayor Quimby, I agree with you re the politicians, and dissatisfaction with Cowen et al is clouding the issue. Will the electorate use Lisbon as a stick to beat FF?
Sometimes I wonder is Ganley actually a double agent, specially chosen to act sinister and frighten people into a Yes vote. (Is there a conspiracy theory topic on MN?).
The issue has become completely personalised.
Good point about pragmatism v principle, thats what it's about.

A quick Google would put you right DP. Britain joined the EEC as it was then known in 1973 under a Tory government without a referendum. In the general election the following year Labour made having a referendum on whether to stay in one of its manifesto pledges. The referendum was held in 1975 and the British people voted by more than 2 to 1 to stay in the EEC.
Happy now?

Daftpunk here

Yes but we still didn't join the EU and have not had a referendum on it. The Eu was created in 93 when Major (the moron) was strong armed into signing the Masstricict treaty.

Oops X post

no i'm not happy...i was 2 in 1975....i want the chance to vote on important issues...i want to come out of the EU....why can't it be put to the vote again....?

i don't think you can legistically work any sort of political system like that. oherwise you could argue that anyone who was 17 years and 364 days old on the day of the vote could call for a re-vote as it were as they hadn't been allowed a say in an important political decision that affected them, or people charged for crimes governed by laws enacted before they were born could argue they'd never agreed to it or had a say in the forming of such laws. ultimately there'd have to be a significant political will manifested by a political party who'd run a campaign under the banner "elect us and we'll put europe to a vote"

daftpunk - why do you want out of EU? intriged to find out - know I'm in Ireland but still wondering.

yes...but i have the chance to vote every 4 years for a political party to run my country ..what's the bloody point in voting if most of the laws are made by the EU..?

Five years under Brown as he clings to power. ( sorry had to go there).

barbie;

immigration...

(thanks for links)

Yes.

Definitely, definitely YES>

Voted yes the last time too.