Identity of Baby P's Mother To Be Revealed Tonight.

[Nancy66]

Along with that of her boyfriend.

I'm loathe to defend or protect her but that can't possibly lead to anything good can it?

The names have been fairly easy to find online for quite a while but there's a hell of a difference between having to actively look for them and having her picture splashed across the front page of The Sun as it undoubtedly will be.

Thank you aitch

I feel truly lucky to have a half decent childhood (compared to dp at least)

I'm overweight, spend more time than i should online, have never held down a full time job. It doesn't make me a monster.

'It is the job of a newspaper to provoke outrage'

Yes indeed and i was terribly outraged to see she got married 'in a plunging black dress with an ill matching white veil '

I mean where are the standards.

The fact that she has no fashion sense has no relevance to anything at all, does it?

FFS Nancy, this attitude is why so much is wrong with the world. The fact that the newspapers now seem to see it as their job to poke and prod the unthinking mundane majority into alternate fits of slobbering sentimentality and fuckwit vigilantism means that very little ver actually does get done that would help children growing up in abusive situations.
You see, demonizing Tracey Connolly as a fat ugly drunken prole means not having to look too closely at how she got that way in the first place (abuse from her own parents, abuse from the state, one abusive partner after another). That particular piece is pure and simple misogyny (Women! Know your limist! Don't drink or get fat or like sex or you will end up living with a psycho who kills your baby while you stand by vacantly!)
What actually needs to be looked at here is iimproving the whoe child protection system: more funding and raising the status of care workers and social workers. beter checks and more openness to prevent predators getting secure niches in the system and abusing those who are most vulnerable...

SGB if there hadn't been the public outrage, the newspaper reporting and the demand for action then the team at Haringay would still be in their jobs.

I agree the whole child protections system need to be changed and improved - but that's not the job of a newspaper.

Nancy^6: Reporting on the catalogue of appalling mismanagement by the council is one thing - perfectly justifiable. Whipping up hysteria against 'the underclass' on the grounds of them being physically unattractive is quite another. More intrusive policing of the lives of the poor (Forcibly sterilize the sloppy housekeepers! Put them on diets or they lose their benefits!) is not the answer to preventing child cruelty and indeed if the trend is in this direction then there will be nasty abuses of power and removals of children from loving homes that just happen not to live up to artificial Enid Blyton standards - and the educated, wealthy sadists and predators who know enough to hurt their children in ways that don't leave marks, and hire good lawyers to keep themselves out of jail, will carry on abusing while everyone's whining about the 'underclass'.

the team at Haringay would still be in their jobs.
The really important question is why Haringey Children's services had "three stars" and was deemed to be one of the best Childrens Services Authorities whilst this happened.

In practise the wrong children were in care.

SGB - I agree that physical appearance is not relevant but lifestyle and behaviour is.

Peter's father married IT because IT lied about IT's age making itself older so he was hardly a 'predator' as it has been put. Even the judge said IT was cold and manipulative so it's not exactly unbelievable that IT stooped to such lows.

I agree that demonizing IT because IT's fat, ugly, drinks too much and sits online all day is unfair, I think what we should be judging is the fact that IT is clearly an evil manipulative creature with no regards for anyone but Itself!

Whather IT has been made that way or born that way is down to ones own belief but personally I believe IT has been made that way but IMO everyone has the ability to change as I have said before a victim of abuse loses all sympathy from me when they become the abuser!

oh, blah, mamadiva. blah.

and it was purple it never ceases to amaze me to see the caption 'married in black' under a picture of a woman in a purple bodice.

SGB, the two go together I think -- they are not in opposition. Examine the lives and the lifestyles of this generation and the last: work out what is going wrong and what needs to be done and improve child protection accordingly.

The thing is not to be depressed or in despair nor to ignore these seemingly intractable problems because the pain of some everyday lives is just unbearable to think about. It's just pointless.

When it comes to "coverage of the underclass", this episode too shall pass, but to be quite frank, I wish there was more of it -- not the whipping up hysteria, but more awareness of the dreadful lives some children lead.

I've been shocked, reading this thread, with all the posts from teachers and relatives. I had no idea how much suffering some children in the UK live with, and how they take that abuse with them as they grow. Don't you think more people should know this? Everyone should know. People should not feel reassured that it's just this one mad, psychotic "family". That you could find households like this across the country.

I have family workers in the social work way and I just didn't know. But how could I have? It's not my experience, I don't come into contact with anyone like that.

So I think it should be all over the papers, every day, that people live such terrible, hopeless, painful, shitty lives.

yes, i was talking to my brother about this last night. he's a paramedic, reckons he sees 'about one baby p candidate a week'. it's terrible, really. but then you have jeremy kyle bullying and humiliating them every day on tv, those people all come from somewhere.

The issue that needs real concentrated thought about is how to improve the lives of these children.

This is where I think other countries tend to do better.

Which countries did you have in mind ?

How can we improve the lives of these children? Where on earth do you start?

Its a losing battle I feel. Sadly.

I was thinking of the Scandinavian countries. Actually most Western European Countries.

In my constituency there is a branch of Homestart. They look at how to support families at a stage before potential care proceedings. They have, for example, highlighted unstable and inadequate housing as a cause of depression (the stress of living circumstances).

I think it is mistake to see the system generally as one in which assertive assessment based intervention is key, but instead general support which acts to improve the quality of care.

It requires more rigorous research, however.

Do you have experience or research that leads you to the conclusion that most western European countries don't suffer in the same way? Interested.

I am sure I have heard more than once that countries with greater social equality and better women's rights have fewer problems in this area. Doesn;t the UK have one of the worst gender pay gaps in Europe?

I have some experience, but not sufficient really and I don't think adequate research is done.

Aitch can I ask what exactly you mean by blah?

To my recollection this is a chat forum where users are expected and allowed to express their opinions on a matter, No?!

I have always been of the stance that abuse victims who go onto become abusers essentially make their own minds up to continue the pain they knew as a child, as I have said before my dad and his 3 siblings were all very badly neglected and abused, they never recieved any help for it but through human deceny they made sure as hell that none of their children ever went through the crap they did because they knew the pain and suffering it causes. I just don't understand ,maybe because I have never been abused, how a human being (well IMO abusers are not humans they are merely evil creatures who lurk amongst us manipulating those around them) can inflict suffering on someone surely common sense and memory alone should be enough to deter an abuse victim from carrying out these acts.

If anyone thinks that is 'blah' then feel free as I said it is my opinion, maybe it is unethical or not the general opinion but it is my own made through the experience I have through several people.

nice post mamadiva.
i am trying to look at the matter in general.
what i've seen mostly the biological fathers ccan disappear whenever they like. its like there is no responsibility on them, the responsibility is left automatically to the mother and government.
i think this should change, the fathers shouldnt be able to disappear so easily, they must know their responsibility and act on it.
2 people make the child.
when children are taught about contraception such stuff in schools at certain stages, they should be taught to become good parents who knows the responsibilty of having a child, family values , etc.

I find myself agreeing with pretty much everything SGB has said.
Yes, our gender pay gap is abysmal. UK is 4th worst in Europe (after Germany, Cyprus and Finland).

blah because of your tone. because of your tabloid sensibility and because of your use of the IT. boring.

and as is often mentioned on here, one swallow does not a summer make. if your dad and family weren't neglectful to their children then presumably they're part of the two-thirds of people who don't continue the cycle of violence. good for them.

your dehumanisation of TC is part of the problem. so long as we consider her behaviour to be less than human, we're never going to get close to solving this.

and much as your father turned out okay, i take it he would have preferred not to be neglected by his parents? so what are we actually to DO about it? how to break the cycle? it's not referring to people who may not have had the intellect, the strength of character, or even the human decency as you put it, to stop the cycle as IT. that, in fact, is how you guarantee the continuation.

I agree aitch.

Using IT to describe a human being is about distancing ourselves from the problem. Using the words 'monster' and 'animal'is the same. I understand why people use these words but it doesn't facilitate any understanding.

I would like to see the energy that people have put into being outraged and seeking revenge, put into changing laws.

If you feel that these people don't deserve to ever be free, after serving their sentance, then campaign to change the law.

The best that can ever come of this type of tragedy, is to try and stop it happening again.

Just call me Ms Trite.