Identity of Baby P's Mother To Be Revealed Tonight.

[Nancy66]

Along with that of her boyfriend.

I'm loathe to defend or protect her but that can't possibly lead to anything good can it?

The names have been fairly easy to find online for quite a while but there's a hell of a difference between having to actively look for them and having her picture splashed across the front page of The Sun as it undoubtedly will be.

Someone I know who works in social services says the only babies who come up for adoption are from truly terrible backgrounds - mainly, in fact, incest. How disastrous to start to trace your origins full of hope and discover that.

The social services in the Baby P case blame the culture of "children must stay with their families at all costs". Yeah, at what cost? This policy has now apparently been changed.

There were some bleeding hearts on here recently feeling sorry for the woman in Luton who had 13 (?) children removed by social services and was expecting another, and bleating away that she should have received more help to keep her dcs. Um.... isn't this just what went wrong in the case of Baby P? And his siblings who suffered neglect and worse?

No, it isn't. The job of SWs, and courts, and everyone involved in child protection, is fundamentally to spot the cases where children do need to be removed for their own safety.

Sadly sometimes things go terribly wrong in both directions - there are cases of children who should have been saved, and weren't, and cases of families who have been badly treated by SS. For instance, victims of domestic violence are often threatened with removal of their children, rather than supported to get out/get the perpetrator out.

And then there are the families that have come under suspicion who were blameless.

All anyone is asking is that social services, the police, education and the health service do their jobs. If they need more money, more staff, more training more anything, they should say that loud and clear. But ultimately they have a responsibility to do their job. Spot the children who need help and don't harass innocent families.

I havent read the whole thread, but I dont get what is to be gained by publishing their names and photographs.
How is anybodies life better for the fact we know what their names are and what they look like?

edam, have you seen any pieces that outline laming's role? it's not something i'm that familiar with but i've got a piece to write that might benefit from the info.

Aitch, it was in the Standard when Barker was convicted of the rape - they ran the investigation into paedophiles operating in Islington childrens' homes.

cheers, yes, i think i've found it. a kind of 'j'accuse' piece by the journo, stating that she bloody well told laming about child a?
and so child a begat baby p, fuck me this is hideous. i avoided reading the details as it felt too prurient at the time, now i've got to do it for work. and i had to read the tabs, the sun has a fucking csi-style cgi with all the injuries. christ almighty.

Edam,with due respect I think you are simplifying a very complex area.

Part of the problem is that there is an assumption all agencies form a consensus about what needs to happen. I know child protection social workers who are aware that abuse is in all probability happening and yet the evidence required to take action is just not deemed enough by their legal dept or the Courts.

Some parents are given opportunity after opportunity to keep their children when it is obvious to frontline practitioners that they just do not have the ability or motivation to change. These opportunities are often sanctioned by the Courts. Situations drag out and children remain at risk.
At the heart of this is the assertion enshrined in legislation that children are better off within the family unit. I think this has contributed to childrens services losing sight of the fact that some children need to be removed from their families and assertive action needs to be taken much earlier.

I was responding to fircone's post where she talked about 'bleeding heart liberals'. Problem with that sort of response to poor Peter's case is that the rush for care orders might sweep up some innocent families as well as the troubled ones, causing enormous harm to the children and parents involved.

It seems as if there has already been an increase in care orders following the convictions - I just hope they are aimed at the families where that action is necessary.

Aitch - how horrible re. The Sun.

Margaret Hodge and Laming have a great deal to answer for. Sometimes I wish I did believe in St Peter and the Pearly Gates...

Good luck with your piece.

I have never come across a baby up for adoption who was the result of incest???

most appear to be the children of substance abusers or parents of very low intelligence.

Edam, all the social workers I know don't even have enough time to look after the families in desparate need, let alone go hunting for 'innocent families' whose children they can steal.

interesting though about care, and who is to care for children in these chaotic households. kinship care is the thing, but connolly's mother appears to have been a shocking parent herself. (although as you might imagine she's telling the sun she hopes her daughter rots in hell etc etc). the questions just get bigger and more complicated (and expensive). i blame thatcher.

You've never seen the CSI-style CGI of the injuries Aitch? Fucking horrendous I agree.

The pictures were in every paper, on T.V screens and during the alleged "competitive-sadding" days on MN. Or should I say, "prole-porn" FGS.

The crucial point, which I am glad some commentators are beginning to make, is that if Peter had survived and grown up and done similar things to his children, everyone would simply be baying for his blood.

I think that mostly psychopaths are made, not born.

I'm sure that's true but it doesn't negate the fact that there has been a series of cases that have raised concern about malpractice. There have been some very critical comments from judges - for instance, about a SS dept. neglecting to bother collecting a court order before snatching a baby from the maternity ward.

I happen to know one of the most eminent doctors in the country, professionally. He told me how he was threatened by social workers for daring to point out that an investigation into one of his patients was being handled extremely badly.

Add to that, the fact that the Islington scandal has never been accounted for, the people involved were promoted, that most of the senior people in charge during the Climbie case were promoted, that the Rochdale SWs who were caught on their own tapes lying and tormenting children are still working and there is demonstrable cause for concern.

There may well be plenty of good, well-intentioned social workers out there. But that does not mean all is fine and dandy everywhere.

Of course things are not fine and dandy everywhere.

But the case you mention - the child was unlawfully removed without court order. The LA went to court and got an order. the child was removed.

social workers are not 'child stealers'. I have NEVER had a case in ten years where i thought - gosh I think the social workers are being a bit quick to remove this child from an innocent family!

Rather I think on ploughing thru another deeply depressing set of case papers, why the bloody hell weren't these children taken YEARS ago and the parents sterilised.

Nancy 66, fair point. All I'm saying is that in ten years, I've never dealt with a baby born of incest, which suggests it is not that common.

Given the details emerging of Tracey Connolly's life, is it really that surprising that she neglected her child and colluded in his abuse? No one ever seems to have shown her any kindness or affection: neglected by her parents, shunted into a care system that was riddled with predators, she fled into a very early marriage with another predator (come on, what kind of 'marriage' is it between a 16-year-old girl with an abusive background and a man in his 30s), lost her older children (yes, rightfully by the sound of it) and was of course easy prey for another predator. She was bound to be, and of course is, incapable of relating to other people in a healthy way. And it sounds as though Steven Barker and Jason Owens grew up equally neglected, abused and in totally chaotic families.
People who are never, ever shown love or real kindness are incapable of feeling or showing it. Children who are neglected/abused can and do make better lives for themselves and love their own DC but only if, at some point, someone takes them on, teaches them the basic rules of behaviour (protect the helpless, take turns, don't instantly resort to violence to get your own way, it;s OK to be unhappy but not OK to take it out on everyone else) and cares about them not just because it's a job, then they are lost and will simply pass the damage on.

I totally agree SGB.

I agree with you too SGB. Theres sometimes a false optimism in childrens services that if you fling enough resources at parents then it will somehow be ok.

Looking at Tracey Connolly's history I wonder how she could have ever had the ability to be a 'good enough' parent.

As a mental health worker I often work with people profoundly damaged by their childhood experiences.I believe in peoples ability to change, I couldn't do my job otherwise.But I do think that there needs to be a more realistic approach to Child Protection which recognises that some children simply cannot remain with their parents.To put them through countless assessments and plough in lots of resources may just be delaying the inevitable-and leaving the child at risk.

I agree SGB My mum was brought up in an abusive house, she found it so hard when we were young to even hug us. She was always distance and found emotions to deal with. Over the years we always went to our dad if we had a problem, I even went to my dad when I started my period. My mum is much better now and can hug and kiss us but it took many many years for the abuse of her childhood to stop having a huge affect on her.

The impact that an abusive childhood can be huge, and Peter's mum was never going to be a great parent, due to the start she had.

Fantastic post, SGB and so true.

Nancy, the inbreeding thing is very widespread I agree. I once taught in a school serving one of those council estates far from town, bordered by main roads and an Asda across the way, which was essentially a ghetto.

Third and fourth generation unemployment / no aspiration. The children were completely baffled when I attempted to initiate a discussion of jobs they might do when they grew up. We had girls aged seven going around asking the boys to perform oral sex in the crudest of terms.

The SENCO was totally overloaded. Eighteen out of my twenty three were on the register. She once said, "There is evidence that conditions such as dyslexia and ADHD are inherited. The problem we have here is that our children are mostly fathered by the same few men" and she was right.

Too right, SGB.

And yes, Ninkynork, inbreeding is still common, both in the white British population and in some ethnic minorities. A friend who works in mental health says that incest is rife in the Travellers community. There is a tradition of keeping wealth in the family in some cases, and in others it's just lack of opportunity. Everyone used to joke about people in the depths of the countryside being inbred. In fact my father as a child lived next door to a married couple who were first maternal cousins. Cue three children with very severe mental problems.

Anyway, as much as I applaud lack of state intervention/interference in the life of the individual, I think in some (or many) cases, it is vital if you are to break the chain of abuse.

Yes, state intervention is often necessary but state intervention sometimes makes things not just no better, but a lot worse. If a child is taken from an abusive family home and put in a care home ful of more abusers, then that child is almost certainly going to be broken beyond repair, convinced that s/he is worthless, that there are no such things as kindness, fairness, or affection untainted by selfish sexual appetites, and the child will be eager to 'grow up', not be the smallest and weakest one any more and able to pass on the abuse to someone else. If there is an abuser every way you turn, it's going to take an awful lot to persuade you that, actually, the world isn't simply a place of abusers and abused.
So the care homes can't just be set up and left to get on with it, they need far more outside checking.

there is a programme working with these parents, that's kind of what i'm doing my thing on. some of the stories, god almighty, would turn your hair white.