If the Tories win, Cameron will support plans to reduce the upper abortion limit

[policywonk]

yikes

In answer to the question "Has anyone ever asked those 2,874 women why they choose to terminate after 20 weeks? Serious question because I can't see anyone saying "I've just found out I'm pregnant, but I'm going to leave it for 20 weeks because I have a lot on at the moment"

In the case of my friend, her 18-20 wk scan was cancelled & not carried until 22 wks, were anomilies were discovered.
Then the wait for referal to the fetal cardio & neuro specialists, follow up scans etc all with agon ising waits for appnts.
To be told the baby was unlikely to make it to term but if she went full term would die at or shortly after birth. This meant her termination was carried out at almost 27 weeks.
Whilst she is comfortable that she amde the right choice for her, with more efficient scanning termination would of been possible before 20 weeks as the anomilies would of been clearly visable by about 16-17 weeks & the trauma of a late abortion lessoned.

Thanks for the replies to my question. I don't usually get into these discussions, but I always felt there was a hint (usually from pro-life websites etc) that people who waited that long did so for awful/selfish/stupid reasons. I couldn't think of any such reasons off hand and am sort of relieved that there can be good sensible reasons.

Though from the sound of it a lot of the reasons could be solved by a better service.

Oh edam I could add a few stories to your sisters list

I interviewed the family of one of her patients once (am a journalist) - it was heart-breaking. Worst thing was they were so scared that telling anyone what had happened to their relative would rebound on them. That the nurses and doctors would say, right, you are antagonistic, fuck off out of here and don't come back. Given he was an adult, it would have been very easy for the hospital to exclude them - and then who would have fed the poor man?

I used to nurse people with LD before I had my boys. I actually think that was the worst thing I could hae done- I wake up at night imaginning the worst things I ever witnessed ut with ds3 (who will need somecare at some level) in the clients palces. I didn't stay long, I left for somewhere with elderly patients that treated them nicely. The place was being investigated by then, thank goodness.

I've also briefly worked in a nursing home that was closed down (in its dying weeks whilst ends were tied). partients were left naked and cold, refused breakfasts becuase of 'bad' behaviour and these all ahd dementia.

But this is a man amde problem and immensely solvable. there is an ASD unit opposite my house run by the NAS- fabulous. If ds3 could access something like that or some of the wonderful supported housing I have encountered I would be happy. But
my biggest concern i think is the knowledge that the biggest wrong I will ever do ds3 is dying.

We know what we want for him, but also have had to battle for everything and despite ds3 being in an SNU the SS refuse to even list him on their system as they have no evidence he is disabled. I can quite see him being with us for ever until we drop dead from exhaustion then going to one of his siblings.

How old is he now peachy? IME it gets easier to access as they get older. You also need to game play a bit. SS don't really care about the child, they just worry that you will bash him and then they'll get in trouble. There are some good SW out there (not enough) - getting a good one made a huge difference to us - in 6 months she set up brilliant support.

DS2 knows that it will be his (and ds3's) job to 'sort out SS' (his words) when we are dead and gone. There are good places out there and they are increasing.

On the political point, this isn't a new "policy" for the Conservatives. This was Cameron's position when he voted on the issue this year. It will never be party policy as abortion (like other issues such as the death penalty) always has a free vote.
It distrubs me that he would try to make political capital from it...

Thinking about it rationally and logically I believe women should be able to choose whether or not to terminate their baby.

However since having my own children my gut reaction will always be pro-life. I would never ever have an abortion.

Not sure where that leaves me in relation to the topic, probably in agreement with Mr Cameron (v. unusual as am normally rather liberal in my views)

Conversely, I'm now more pro-choice than I ever was, after havin my own children.

I agree with whoever (sorry, can't see who) said that many people have little/no experience of SN/LD's etc etc and that disabilities are little understood by many, hence some attitudes towards termination for disabilities. However thats not always the case. I have quite a lot of experience and knowledge of various disabilities, and thats probably the main reason why I would personally terminate if tests showed my foetus to have various disabilities.
I don't have that option though, as I said before, I am now 28 weeks pregnant, have had no anomaly scan and no testing, so no way of knowing. I'll take what I get and hopefully would cope with whatever. I'd prefer to have the choice though, TBH.

I don't expect anyone to agree with me, but neither do I apologise for the fact that I would terminate in some cirumstances, had I the option.

MrsT he is 6 next week. We have a letter sent to the SS in Feb by P{aed (the one that states Peoblem: Autism- er no, dx: autism, surely? ) asking for respite holiday care which was iggnored so going to tae up again in hope of next year after holiday. I don't mind caring for him, but don't want to get to that place where we drop dead and he's not on any system.We think (guesswork but Paed agrees) that supported living would work, so trying to aim for that IYSWIM.

Proverbial I hope your pregnancy goes well, but as a former carer who went on to have 2 kids with asd and one with apparent dyspraxia, the difference between your child with Sn and someone elses is too immense to even describe but does come down to the 'your child' bit.

FWIW I do know of someone who left a baby with DS in hospital, purely becuase her 'd'H said he'd throw her out if she brought that baby back; she regretted it to this day but doesn't have th3 backbone to dump him. Yet another case where the right support might have changed everything.

is that because scans just dont pick up certain things then?
or because the sonographers missed something?

I don;t think SS pay much attention to autism/LD's until the child reaches 8 peachy. There is nothing here for the under 8's and it seems to be a similar story elsewhere. For us the answer was purely by chance being given a bloody good SW who did all the fighting for us.

Scan pick up hardly anything. DS1 is severely disabled. Wasn't picked up on a scan (and couldn't be- nothing to see). I haven't yet met any parent in his school who did know beforehand. It was one reason why we wouldn't have terminated for DS. We were at high risk of having another child with Ds1's condition, so there would have been no point terminating a child with DS only to go on and have a child with more severe disabilities.

I'd like to see the limit reduced too.

im very naive
i honestly thought the majority of things could be picked up on a scan
i didnt even realise that most women only get one or two scans thru their entire pregnancy
i had 4 problem pregnancies and had scans all the time

I had a great very many scans with ds1, with hyperemesis (hospitalised- at first they thought potential molar pg or multiple birth so scans at 7 weeks) at the start and then on to eclampsia and IUGR. Thankfully they don't pick up on ASD though, as Dh and I had only been together 3 months- thgere was no way the baby would ahve been terminated but who needs extra stress?.

I developed an anti test stance for me though after ds3, becuase the bloods picked up high risk for Downs Syndrome and were were pressured by both MW and MIL to have amnio- pointless as again we wouldn't have terminated. We did get bullied into going to a pre-amnio counselling session, and we did a runner (on the hints of the specialist MW) before Consultant arrived. A very detailed scan showed no amrkers and he doesn't have ds.... he has autism instead.

For ds4 I had the basic scans just to check for anything that could be sorted before birth, a positioning scan for a HB and that was that. I learned my lesson. For us with our genetics the surprise would be a baby without any additional issues (even NT ds2 is being looked at for dyspraxia). So far ds4 is developing well (after a big scare on day one when he was rushed to SCBU with a heart murmur and then growth issues which all cleared up themselves), he is pointing and starting to chat but has some flags which make me think AS. AS without the additional complications ds1 has does not scare me, though clearly i'd not wish it on him as I have a lot of traits myself and would much rather not- mainly loneliness and a complete inability to deal with office politics etc.

do people still really believe a ok scan means they will be ok?
my scans were fine, you can't scan for incompetence at the hospital.

2shoes;

that is an entirely different issue.....i always struggle to understnd what point you're trying to make?

LeninGrad i just angers me that people seem to think tests tell them everything, sad when you could have countless termination in the hope of the perfect child yet still end up with a disabled child.