If the Tories win, Cameron will support plans to reduce the upper abortion limit

[policywonk]

yikes

scans still carried out a 20 weeks here. In fact I went with a friend just last week she was 20+2.

i didnt realise that proverbial, i was offered an anomaly scan with all mine, my first pregnancy it was done between 18-20 weeks, but with all my others they were changed to 22 weeks
seems to be different for every area then

18 weeks here, and 14 for first scan (was actually at v15 and they dropped big hints about gender to me)

back home 20 weeks no first scan

tis a lottery

Yes, depends where you are, individual hospitals vary wildly. I will be getting a second this time, but not til 35 weeks for placents positioning, otherwise would have been just the one. And that was meant to be a 12 week dating scan, but no appts available until 15 weeks!

Exactly peachy, I would never judge having not been in that situation & I do believe there should be Equal choice for all.

I also know that during antenatal care there is not the informed, unbiased, balanced info available to parents to make decisions.

Investment in support for vulnerable groups & for information when abnormalities are discovered & tehn we can have informed debate about a suitable cut off for ALL.

Let's not forget that anyone can limit themselves to 20 weeks. This is about stopping other women from making a decision.

Imagine walking up to someone outside a clinic and saying "I don't care what your reasons are. I'm not letting you have this abortion"

That's what it amounts to.

So it looks like there is no need to allow later abortions just scan at the earliest appropriate developmental stage.

That dopes though work for a great many things Onager and is only a aprt argument

The limit of 24 weeks currently has the same effect, as does almost every other law

Drink driving for example.

Many of us don't feel that late termination is victimless.

Absolutely agree its very complex but not victimless.

And that my friend is what comes down to entirely personal call: its like the whole abortion debate. Either you see baby and are affected by that, or you see foetus and think that way.

Something you cant necessarily change however much you rationalise (as I do) and try to find other ways around it

No onagar, it is about making sure we have the correct legislation, support, investment & training in place to ensure that ALL mothers are able to make an informed choice at the earliest opportunity.

Surely a late termination is not the preferred option for anyone.

Unless it's for a dire anomaly picked up at the 20-week, I'd like to see it reduced. IMO, if you haven't made up your mind that you don't want the baby by 12 weeks, tough. If you decide you don't want the baby after that, there's always adoption. 24 weeks, when the baby is actually a fully-formed human being capable of feeling pain, is just too awful to contemplate.

things can be missed at the 20 week scan, or indications show something is wrong, necesitating more later scans.

what if you are breastfeeding and not having periods and don;t realise you are pregnant until 3 + months? and you hvae PND or other issues? or the baby is a result of rape? is it still 'tough' then?

it is just impossible to apply any sort of blanket statements to this

it should never jsut be 'tough, you aer pregnant and too late to abort,. so have the baby and then give the baby up for adoption'

psychologically, that would be ruinous, imo, far more than a termination that the woman had made a decision to go ahead with

By LuluMaman on Wed 15-Jul-09 19:35:20
Unless it's for a dire anomaly picked up at the 20-week, I'd like to see it reduced. IMO, if you haven't made up your mind that you don't want the baby by 12 weeks, tough. If you decide you don't want the baby after that, there's always adoption. 24 weeks, when the baby is actually a fully-formed human being capable of feeling pain, is just too awful to contemplate.

sorrry , the above should have been in quotation marks as it was something said lower down by another poster

But lulu mama, you could apply those argumetns right up until full term, not realising pregnant, bfeeding, pnd etc do you still agree it is OK to terminate a full term baby in those circumstances.

Surely there must be an equal cut off to all & the fact that if delivered the baby would breathe & react seems like a sensible place to start.

I just can't see the need in the 21st century for late terminations.

I agree that there are problems with defining 'severe disability'. I believe that under uk law a mother whose life would be at risk from continuation can terminate whatever stage I wonder whether that include a suicide risk so for a non disabled baby iyswim.

The problem I have with the current law is that it places a different value on the lives of apparently non disabled versus definitely disabled babies. And it isn't confined to severe disability (it should be but isn't). I also think that medics are not the people who should be advising on learning disability.

So definitely in the raise the limit to birth for all (so doing away with the distinction) and increase education/ counselling and access to termination when wanted.

LuluMama - there has to be a cut-off somewhere. Personally I think it should be sooner rather than later. But I accept that's only my opinion.

But why if there is a risk to the mother post 24 weeks would it need to be a termination?
why could the baby not just be delivered?

I do agree about the lack of definition of severe disability, whatever the cut off point.

Oh I suspect that is what happens in most cases anon but in law the mother's life us protected above the fetus. I an wondering what would happen if a mother sought a late termination for being suicidal at the thought of becoming a mother for example.

anon, however repugnant, i think the mother's right to choose if she remains pregnant or not, in teh face of trauma/adversity etc has to take precedence over the right of a child not yet born

also, if the baby was delivered at 24 weeks... then what? weeks in SCBU? then what?

anonandlikeit - termination at past 13 weeks usually involves inducing delivery according to ARC

Provincial - you said "I live in Ireland, where abortion is still illegal, and necessitates travel to another country, often but not always GB. Its a much harder, more long winded and difficult experience. Not only do you need to find out where and how to access the service, you need to pay for it as a private overseas patient (much more expensive), find accomodation, travel expenses, etc etc. Women in that position often tend to have later abortions, and thats without considering those who have to travel even in case of disability or incompatability with life."

That's all well and good, and I sympathise, but I'm a little that you think it reasonable that one country should take into account travel time for citizens of another country when setting its laws! Not entirely realisic, I think.

I would guess she would have trouble convincing dr's as if suicidal I don't think they would deem her fit to make such a decision.
An impossible situation i imagine.

Actually I wonder what would have happened in ds2's case.
I suppose they could of predicted some level of disablitiy given his level of prolonged distress & failing heartrate, comprimised O2.

Instead of rushing me to theatre at 28weeks they maybe could of offered me a termination.
Never though about it in such a way before today.
I

Yes Lulu weeks in SCBU but for many at 24 wks it is then followed by a long, happy, healthy life, free of long term disability.

and for the babies that are damaged irreperably by being born too early?

the trauma to the family and the mother.. if she delivered that early and then the baby had terrible problems.. what then ?

also the strain on hospitals and staffing to have more prem babies would be huge

i know neo natal medicine has progressed, but 24 weeks can still be pushing the boudaries

there is no easy answer at all and i find it really hard to think about, but i keep coming back to my beleif that women cannot and should never simply be vessels or incubators

Yes 24 weeks is pushing the boundaries, that SCBU trauma is very real to me.
It is impossible to predict which prem babies will be left with life long disabilities & which come through unscathed.

It si not easy, it is an emotional rollercoater that I would not want to repeat & my ds2 was born at 28 wks not 24 & his disability is for life.

The debate about neonatal care is, IMO a completely different one to how much legislation should be in place to support a womans right to choose to terminate.
I fully support a womans right to choose BUT I think the cut off should be EQUAL, if terminating for disability or for other emotional or social reasons.

I also struggle to fully understand why a cut off needs to be post 24 wks, under any circumstances.