Light sensors cause religious row

[OldLadyKnowsNothing]

Story here.

Maybe they should just move?

I'm quite shocked by some of the comments on this thread. Bloody hell.

To answer GrandadOnagar's repeated calls for Jews to kill each other over religious differences; in answer to your question, no, you do not kill another person if you disagree with them. It is repeatedly stressed in the Talmud that there may be multiple answers to the same question, all right, because people are taking it from a different viewpoint. If there is a major dispute, you could take it to the Beth Din and they would make a final ruling.

As to whether or not walking past a motion activated light breaks the Shabbos rules; you would probably get fifty different answers to whether or not it is. And to be honest, I don't think that leaving a light on for 52 days a year is going to greatly contribute to global warming. And, on balance, they would not be using other electronic equipment such as cars, radios, computers, TVs, washing machines etc. for the duration of shabbat so that more than balances it out. Finally, the light would not have to be left on all weekend, just over the 25 hours of shabbat (from Friday evening to Saturday evening).

but again, I am pretty shocked by all the anti-religious and anti-Jewish vitriol on this thread. (though am quite impressed with MorningPaper)

I don't think this whole debate is really about having a light on permanently from sundown on Friday until sundown on Saturday, as I'm sure in monetary value when the costs are split between the 35 properties, we really are just talking about pence.

I think it is the issue of being made to change something to fit in with someone else's belief.

And before I am pounced on, I am not just talking about the issues that this non story has raised.

Our local hospital had a beautiful chapel, which was used by people from all denominations, no one minded the fact that it was called a chapel.

When we moved to our disaster PFI replacement, we had a room, no longer the hospital chapel, but a room (who's name reminds me of a certain range from a well known high street pharmacy/shop) for people to go to for "reflection"
When you enter the room, you would never know that you are entering a place of worship, it looks more like an art gallery.

Yes the vitriol has been surprising.

I'm sure God (if one exists) has far more important things to do than worry about someone turning on a light (or breaking any of the superstitions pointless rules that other religions have)

[and good point bleh about other activities not done well off setting small environmental cost of light left on]

I'm not seeing vitriol?

As for other activities, they set timers for electrical machines so they are still using them, just not touching a switch (creating fire).

Well, read through the previous posts and I'm sure you'll see it.

Yes, timers are set, but generally just lights and maybe a slow-cooker/heating tray. That's about it.

I don't necessarily agree with their lawsuit or their interpretation of shabbat laws, but I don't think that they deserve the level of abuse received on this thread.

I've read all of the posts, bleh, and I really don't see massive amounts of vitriol and abuse. I do see a lot of people finding the whole thing utterly preposterous.

Is no-one going to mention the "elephant in the room?" - ok I will.

This is ridiculous. As if God is sitting up there saying...well that religious couple there, they switched that timer on, I'm going to ignore all the rest of their holy life and send them to ..is there a Hell for Jews?

What type of a pedantic, nit-picking God is this. I'm sure if He exists He's more understanding and merciful than that - and if He's not, why would you want to bend over backwards for someone so spiteful anyway?

The hospital chapel was used by different religions, for whom services would be performed throughout the week.
Although quite small, it did have areas for prayer, which again everyone could use.

Nobody questioned the suitability of this, the hospital chapel had been built in the late 1800's when not much thought was given to the needs of different religions.

People just shared the space.

Really growingup? I am the first to admit that my knowledge of non-christian religions is hazy (let's just say that RE was different where I grew up to what it is now in the UK) but I would have though that the reason certain "rules' have come about was to avoid offending or to show respect for whatever god is being worshipped? Please explain more!

lil:

They aren't RULES per se, they are OBSERVANCES i.e. small ways in which spiritual mindfulness is enacted through physical symbolism - you could say the same thing about any religious symbolism: "Lighting a candle? A small flame? What sort of God is going to give a toss about that?" - It isn't ABOUT the flame, it's about the ritual and in the case of the Sabbath - for one day a week - living in a way in which you are conscious of God in your actions and observances.

No vitriol? Here's an updated list:

"tosspot"
"really need to grow up"
"just STUPID"
"what a load of guff"
"overrides other people's rights"
"numpty"
"Stupid, just stupid"
"twaddle"
"bonkers"
"selfish gits"
"superstitions"
"FFS"
"showing off"
"go and fuck themselves"
"should always be greeted with derision"
"whining"

I'm not quite sure what other section of society would attract such abuse to be honest.
"interfering"
"pc gone mad"
"when in Rome"
"pathetic"

I do not understand why there cannot be anormal switch that people would switch on when they need it and would turn itself off after a few minutes (enough time to go up or down the staircase). It would still allow people who wants the light on to turn it on, it would not wast too much electricity as it would not stay on all day if you forget do not turn it off. It would give the Jewish people in that building the choice to turn the light on during the wek and not doing it on Jewish holiday. I find it quite simple really! It does not need to be a choice between the light all day or breaking a religious rule!

Hear hear, MP.

FlappyTheBat: I would guess there were reasons for changing the space and I would guess they were given. What do you THINK those reasons were? I'm not sure exactly what point you are trying to make.

Maybe I am missing something here?

Ok, from Bleh's recent post, it is ok to have a slow cooker on, on an automatic timer which I presume will go off in their presence. So in effect, they are present when a switch has been activated/deactivated.

What is the difference then, walking past a light that has a motion sensor?

They are not physically touching the switch, I always thought it was the act of physically touching a switch that you were not allowed to do during the Shabbat?

I am sorry to see such nasty anti Jewish comments on here, on the same website that recently had many threads berating the BNP

FFS-ing at people's religious beliefs?

'they won't drive , too much like work'

agree with MP's reasoned posts on here

agree with the psoter who said the Beth Din could make a ruling

Yes, morningpaper, a lot of people finding the whole thing utterly preposterous.

"they won't drive, too much like work" - work is forbidden on the Sabbath, is it not? If flicking a switch/creating fire is work, surely driving a car - with all of those firey explosions going on under the bonnet - is also "work"?

MP, when the new hospital was planned, it was decided that there could no longer have a chapel as this would mean the hospital would be excluding people from other religions from being able to use the room.

Despite the fact that this had been happening for many many years,

Was using it as an example of something changing in the name of religion, when there hadn't been any problem in the old hospital. There seemed to be a greater understanding and acceptance.

the tone of that comment came across as something rather unpleasant

forgive me if that was not your intention

however , the list that MP has put together is indefensible really

absolutely foul