Light sensors cause religious row

[OldLadyKnowsNothing]

Story here.

Maybe they should just move?

I don't mind unbending atheists either. Most of my best friends etc etc.

I haven't called you rude or intolerant, UQD (although as I said I felt your comment about how this thread showed that believers "don't like it up 'em" was thoroughly unjustified). However I did feel it was a disingenuous of you to say:

"I can't see how asking questions which other people have acknowledged as "interesting" stifles discussion."

when as far as I can see, you haven't actually asked very many questions at all.

UQD, I haven't found you to be offensive at all to me. In fact you've raised some good points and asked good questions.

However saying this; "What stifles discussion is the acceptance of religious belief at face value, which is sadly what a lot of those on the faith side want." saddens me. A minority of people have blind faith yes, and I think I criticised that in my earlier posts. But then again, some people are so vexed with religion that they too, have closed minds and accept whatever alternative theory is out there, without questioning it or fully understanding it.

I can ask my non-believing colleagues the process of the Big Bang theory and they wouldn't have a clue. They trust the scientists because they presume these people, having more intelligence, must be right.

It works both ways. But there will not be any headway made if both sides continue to make generalised observations against the other. Observations that are extremely biased.

"the acceptance of religious beliefs at face value", to me that's the whole point, that's faith.

But non-believers don't have faith, why should we be expected to accept religious beliefs at face value?

what do you mean? non-believers arn't expected to accept anything are they.

The "oy vey" thing was just part of the general tone of the humour on here. It wasn't as if it was an anti-semitic comment, for goodness' sake...

growingup - really? That was offensive? I'm rather reminded of the "that's not a knife" conversation from "Crocidie Dundee"!

A (hopefully polite) question then. If god were real, why would it be bothered about a bunch of people on a tiny little backwater planet in the middle of nowhere who don't believe in it? Surely it would just give a celestial chortle and say "your loss, chaps", and move on... (Not literally, but you get my drift.)

god would be more bothered about a bunch of people on a tiny planet.

oh, and i wasn't offended by your "oy vey" comment, i do have a sense of humour.

Yes, we are theloneposter. We're also supposed to alter the way we behave, to accommodate believers.

UQD, I do believe you are a proselytising atheist! You're attempting to convert the religious. It can't be done, I tell you.

For the record, I very rarely start these discussions. I think you can count on the fingers of one hand the times I have done so.

I pile in when patent silliness or something with no evidence is being spouted and needs challenging. I've seen comments about atheism on here which have betrayed appalling lack of knowledge about what it is.

On that level maybe Swedes is right to see me as some sort of "Atheist Avenger" with light-sabre of truth in hand

I don't think it's unfair to do that. I'd do so in real life, after all.

not really, no more than you're expected to accept the rights of homosexuals, dog lovers, people with nut allergies...etc.

Blind faith in anything is just bad, ignorant and sad.

Now why don't you just accept me as your rightful leader and offer sacrificial pints of Guinness?

So - accept religious beliefs at face value or not? There seems to be some dissent in the god camp.

UQD noooooo! In fact the catholic church does encourage you to question now, they have set up groups that do just that. They would frown upon people who just accepted without questioning. IME anyway, I know it's not the same everywhere.

For me, it's vital to question.

But that's where you're wrong. It doesn't need challenging, and describing a religion, in this instance, about Orthodox Jews keeping the Sabbath. as patent silliness is ridiculous.

Either that or you're just ignorant. Or a bigot.

Rhubarb - well, yes, my policy is that we can't possibly be an expert on everything. When it comes to cosmological science, I have to ask myself (as I would with geology, bike-maintenance, or any of the other subjects on which I am plainly ignorant) whether there is a substantial published body of work, peer-reviewed, supported by data.

Any decent scientist "believing" in the Big Bang would be able to demonstrate in minutes that it was more than his/her "belief" - that it was a strong, prevalent theory. Debated, yes, but with enormous weight of data behind it and numerous peer-reviewed articles in respectable publications to support it.

at face value, it has been proven that people who believe in god have happier lives in general, it's a good thing to have faith UQD.

ilovemydog - where did i say jews keeping the Sabbath was patent silliness? Hmmm? Where?

But as a non-believer, it is "patent silliness" for two grown adults to choos to travel to a holiday flat every weekend, which includes their holy day, and then stay in the flat for fear of the light switching on, and then go to court over it! No matter how sincerely-held the belief that a light going on = creating fire.

UQD "On that level maybe Swedes is right to see me as some sort of "Atheist Avenger" with light-sabre of truth in hand"

I was thinking more concrete guard dog, with stretchy spittle.

oldladyknowsnothing, yes, i agree with you.

just catching up and not much time right now, but theloneposter there is a difference between us accepting that others are religious and accepting that others are gay.

I made a post a way back about this, but basically religion affects the non-religous in this country. Bishops in the house of lords rule us, (some) religious people telling us (sometimes knocking on our door to do it) that our familes are going to be tortured in hell for not doing things their way. Compulsory worship in schools etc.

consider yourself well & truely told off UQD!

It is patent silliness for me to wave a Sky Blue flag out my window in the vain hope that one day there will be silverware at Eastlands, but other people don't have to run round objecting to it.

I have been thinking about it a lot. A culture of respect is important in an open democratic society. And recognition of beliefs, cultures and political views is part of that. This gives different groups dignity to practise without fear of attack or violence or ridicule. Those principles are right and good.

I don't - actually, despite my belief in a universalistic atheist world view - believe that the practise of beliefs I don't happen to think are true should be disallowed or challenged at every opportunity. The only alternative to dignity and recognition would be a state-sponsored secular neutrality, as in France, which clearly stimulates ethnic unrest and inequality.

So. Actually. I agree entirely that the belief itself is 'patent silliness'. But do I have the right to spread that around? No. It doesn't affect me that they want their lights off, nor very many people. It doesn't affect me so much if women want to wear burkhas, or worship at Stonehenge.

Could we not please at least distinguish between the veracity or epistemological accuracy of beliefs, and people's right to profess them?