Light sensors cause religious row

[OldLadyKnowsNothing]

Story here.

Maybe they should just move?

I don't think they'd be allowed to drive a car on the Sabbath. Too much like "work".

To those talking about dark stairwells, my assumption was that the lights would go on on a Friday night at sundown, and off again at Saturday sundown (end of Sabbath), though I suppose sunup on the Saturday would work too. But this obviously increases electricity use, and therefore service charges to all the other flat-dwellers.

If I was them I would say that I would pay for the override switch to come on via timer during the period they're not allowed to activate it, and offer to pay the difference between the electricity bill for having the light on for that extra period.

It can only be a few pounds - electricity for lights is hardly expensive.

Job done.

Why people make such a fuss about these easily solveable non issues I do not know.

They aren't suing their neighbours, they are suing their management company.

Lots of quite offensive talk on here TBH. Are you really all so ignorant about Judaism? Do you mix with a lot of hardline Jewish people who ride roughshod over your civil liberties? Britain used to be one of the most tolerant societies around but frankly it's really scraping the barrell when we start telling Jewish people to 'go fuck themselves'. How is it perfectly reasonable to be allowed to chose whether your children are influenced by Wotsits and television but perfectly "selfish" to want to carry out your religion in the privacy of your own home environment?

Tell you what, why don't we just pack them off on trains to some sort of gas chamber so we can rid ourselves of their ignorant selfish superstitions?

I am intrigued by the question of what happens if you walk past houses that have sensor-controlled outdoor lights though -- does this also break the sabbath?

MP, I think it's the 'reductio ad absurdum' aspect of it that people are objecting to -- which is not unique to Judaism obviously, but some of the rules around the jewish sabbath do showcase the concept quite nicely, and hence lend themselves to ridicule.

Its about live and let live...

If you buy a flat you know there will be times when decisions have to be made about common areas.

You also know When these kinda decisions need to be made sometimes people have to compromise. I know compromsing your religious beliefs is a big ask but this is a self activated light and seems quite a minor compromise to me

personally I think its pc gone mad and this is more about how much money and publicity this couple can get rather than religion

"Leslie Bunder, the editor the Jewish community website somethingjewish.com, claimed that the Colemans were over-reacting. He said: ?As long as they are not physically doing the act of turning the light on, it?s actually not against the rules.

?They should not be putting the onus on their neighbours to change. It?s a bit arrogant really. It?s an embarrassment, it?s giving reasonable Jews a bad name.?

This was taken from The Times article I linked to yesterday.

As you will notice, it is written by a member of the Jewish Community, who is also voicing a similar view, that they are being just ever so slightly unreasonable in their request.

I do not have any problems with anybody from a different faith but I do have a problem with being likened to the Nazis.

I would write the same comments about a couple wanting to have lights switched off on a stairwell during the hours of darkness, regardless of what religion or race they are.
That is my issue here, to enforce your belief on others, and have the potential to endanger others because of it.

That would leave them switched ON

It doesn't endanger anyone

whatever happened to the old adage - when in rome....

and surely by suing the colemans are forcing their views on their neighbours

Some very nasty views here ... what do you mean by 'when in rome' exactly? This couple are British!

They haven't asked anyone else to use the stairs in the dark. The article in The Times said that they asked about motion sensors when they bought the flat, and were assured that there wouldn't be any. Then when they were installed, they offered to pay, themselves, for a manual override - so everyone could just turn the lights on when on the stairs on a Saturday. They may be being rather unreasonable to now take this to court, but the really horrible comments on here are just not warranted.

the reasons for having the lights as they are are sound and reasonable for the majority of the people living there, i doubt that the management company had any intention of upsetting someone by simply installing energy saving sensors. So would it not have been more public spirited of them, to just live and let live, like one of the other posters said, what happens when they are out and about on the sabbath do they for example avoid going into building with automatic doors, or and do they really like one suggested, use timers for household equipment to come on. its all the same surely?

And perhaps some of the comments people have posted are meant to be tongue in cheek rather than offensive - havent had time to read them all, and its sad if some have been horrible.

And at least by opening this thread, the OP has brought to light (pardon the pun) a new topic - I for one have learnt something new - never knew that Jews were not meant to use electricity on the sabbath as I am sure other people did not know either.

it could be argued that the others in the flats believe that they are saving the planet by saving energy...

and therefore by having the lights on all the time compromises their beliefs

where do you draw the line???

I just think people see a chance to make money and sue ... its pathetic

Just because you find Judaism dull/mad does not excuse the level of ignorance on this thread.

An orthodox Jew would definitely not attend somewhere with electric doors! In fact many don't travel at all on the sabbath - they certainly don't use cars. They don't cook. It isn't a normal day. It isn't like 'Sunday' observance - it's an entire ritual religious day with complicated and detailed rituals, observed by the whole family and community.

All they want is to have a light on for 24 hours. Which they have offered to pay for. Which inconveniences no one at all.

who said anything about finding judaism dull/mad????

are we reading the same posts morningpaper?

So, what do you know about others 'SUNDAY' observances - are they not observed by the whole family then?

got to go out now...

hope your day improves morningpaper.

who said anything about finding judaism dull/mad????

I assume many people here find Judaism dull because there seems to be widespread ignorance about it. Or perhaps they find it fascinating but are reading the wrong books.

As far as 'mad', I was trying to summarise the following charming descriptions of Orthodox Judaism:

"selfish gits"
"superstitions"
"FFS"
"showing off"
"go and fuck themselves"
"should always be greeted with derision"
"whining"
"interfering"
"pc gone mad"
"when in Rome" (?)
"pathetic"

I don't find any religion dull or mad.

Judaism (orthodox) does not prevent the use of lights which have sensors.
If you are walking past an automatic light which then comes on, as long as it is in an area that is already reasonably lit, then you have not broken any rule on the Sabbath.

as long as it is in an area that is already reasonably lit

'zactly

In my understanding there are LOTS of interpretaions of this though and some people will naturally be far stricter than others in interpretation.

I am intrigued by the whole affair and not sure what I think the outcome would be. I think being so legalistic brings it's own perils (see the pharisees of the NT for details ). We have Jewish friends who gave me detailed instructions about what their daughter could/couldn't do during a sleepover at ours which was over Shabbat. Giving her a lift home in the morning was met with deep horror; toasted bagel for breakfast - no problem at all ... work that one out.

That is the problem with most if not all religions though.

There are so many different interpretations of what is allowed not allowed.

In my own religion, there was a breakaway church formed many many years ago and even now, those that follow the "new" church, have a different set of rules and are very strict about what can be done on the Sabbath.

Having friends that are non-Orthodox Jews, I know that they do not have the same issues re electricity, maybe that is just them though!

If they had moved into a building that had motion sensor switches for the lights, then it would be a little unreasonable to demand they be changed.
But having them imposed upon them after they have been told there weren't/wouldn't be any is out of order.

And a motion sensor is a switch.

One of the comments on that Times article says "Actually there is no spark, and hence no fire, since the switching is done within the solid-state circuits of the control apparatus, involving only invisible alterations in the flow of electrons. Similarly, using LED bulbs would assure no spark" Now it's been a long time since Electronics classes at Uni but that sounds right...

So maybe just changing the bulb would solve the problem?

They're definitely out of order for suing thier neighbours though.

FFS Morningpaper. That gas chamber comment you made was far more crass and offensive than any made here.

I think what they're doing is bonkers, and I say that as someone who is in the process of converting from R.C to Judaism. I don't believe that I'm anti-semitic.

I believe the use of an automatic light switch, though I may be wrong, would only contradict their beliefs if they actually put their hand on the switch and turned it on themselves.

They may be suing the management company in name, but in fact it is the other residents in practice and it is certainly their neighbours who will have to foot the bill. Even if they lose, eventually, the neighbours have to fund the case up to that point and may well find it impossible to recover their costs. Lawyers don't sit on their bills, only expecting payment once a final judgment has been given.

Couple are completely unreasonable and over-reacting.

Anyway, I thought orthodox Jews had all sorts of tricks to get round the rules, like that eruv in North London? (You should hear what my non-orthodox Jewish friends have to say... I would never dare be so rude myself!)

I think it's a sorry state of affairs if we can't laugh about religions - yes, even historically persecuted ones.