This story about the Plymouth nursery is worrying

[crumpet]

I hope it's not as serious as it sounds
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/8090790.stm

Thunderduck makes a very valid point. These things have always happened, but I think its worrying how the internet seems to attract these people to eachother and they create little evil communities out there. I also think with so many images readily available on the internet it can awaken peoples curiosity and the more deprived stuff they view or read the further they want to push the boundaries, for example the demand for younger children or more violent acts.

Personally I am as shocked as anyone about this story. I don't worry about the nursery and school my children go to, but there are other places I send my children which worries me. I really don't want to live in a world where every adult could be a peadophile and where an adult cannot change a nappy alone.

Nursery nurses are often alone with children. In one nursery I tempted in (a big well known chain) I was left totally unsupervised in a room with 4 two-year olds for at least 20 minutes, just because I had a CRB check.

Yes, I think the internet is enabling and also creates financial motivations for the less than scrupulous types.

I can't see it's something you'd be likely to do if you were not already inclined, but teh existence of a peer group that justifies it must surely be significant? I understand that Apedophikles are pretty good at making their behaviours palatable in their own minds.

thanks SG - that does make sense albeit awful

I also think that pre-internet the life of a paedophile was much more difficult. You mostly would have to 'out' yourself someone to reveal your inclinations. Now people can contact each other with annonimity.
And I think the desire to post images and posture and brag in front of your on-line cohorts is a driving force toward increasing abuse. Don't forget that for many paedophiles the mastery of another human being is part of the attraction. To be able to flaunt this 'power' on line must be a powerful force.
I think there probably have been people for whom the fear of discovery kept their impulses in check.Current lifestyles are doing the oppsite IYSWIM

Fairymum I think the point is that the parents at the nursery in question also felt they didn't have anything to worry about until they turned up one morning with the nursery shut and note pressed into their hands and their lives turned upsidedown.

This is the whole point - you don't know what happens to your child when you are not there - no matter the setting.

My child is at a private nursery - I'm not worried about his nursery but again - to make my point - neither were the parents involved in in this truly horrible story.

I do honestly trust my ds's carers but this has served to remind me that I must have eyes at the back of my head whilst ensurng my little one doesn't pick up on any of his parents' fears.

What an earth of was the motive - classic abuser or someone seduced into making extra cash who deluded themselves their actions were OK with no repercussions to anyone. I want to know how long this person has been in childcare.

I cannot imagine what those parents are going through. And her children - their lives have also been turned upsidedown. I cannot get my head around this.

We'll find out more in September and in the meantime I hope the investigation leads to the arrests and charging of more people who are a threat to children.

I have just started working for a local Authority with adults with severe learning difficulties...I'm also a mum to a 20 year old with severe physical disabilities. When I started my employment (may this year) I had to have an 'enhanced' CRB check which was compulsary. I know with the older type CRB checks if there was an allegation made of child abuse but not proven in a court of law it would not have to be disclosed on the check . A person could move 'out of Borough' and take up another post. I met a lady who had worked in a special needs school and her original check was 11 years old. Riven I dont mean to worry you but if you're going to worry abouy your daughters carers what about the escourt and school bus drivers?...and the many carers who work in the voluntary secter?. The support workers who I work with are, trustworthy,dedicated and show the clients respect and dignity at ALL times and I'm talking from a parents prospective too! we have guidlines/rules and regs that MUST be obeyed. I dont know how this nursery worker got away with this (crb wise) but it will come out soon. But meanwhile mums please DO NOT start suspecting every care worker because this case really is extremely rare IF she has passed ALL the legal checks ...As for the mum who suggested following workers around with a camcorder...FFS would you like someone to watch your every move while your trying to work a 10 hour shift? and what about my clients rights NOT to be filmed while I'm washing/dressing and doing their personal care??? Is that not abuse too?. Maybe you'de argue that it would just be nursery school kids who were filmed BUT the clients I look after are no less vonurable...where would it end?. I agree that this evil woman abused her position of trust but please dont suspect ALL carers, teachers, nursery staff. we're not ALL guilty just like every GP isnt Harold Shipman and every nurse wants to kill her/his patience.

CRBs will highlight convictions - all of them but there is a timescale.

You cannot assume that the charged person was not CRB checked. They will only throw up previous convictions. A conviction is where a person has been accused, charged and then convicted.

Many criminals are not accused, then charged and then convicted. They have not been found out to date.

A crb is what it is - people who have been previously found out and then found guilty.

I agree with posters about web cams in nursery's - I like the idea in principle but I would not like the idea of other parents beng able to view my child going to the loo for example.

There is only so much anyone can do in these situations.

But how long would they need to keep the webcam films for....IF they were suddenly needed at a later date for evidence? I'm sorry but I just cant see it working it would cost too much if you had to renew the tapes everyday
and most Boroughs just would'nt sanction it I'm afraid...correct me if I'm wrong of course. How would it work if you have to have staff change babies/toddlers whilst out on a trip somewhere? Who would hold the camcorder? manager maybe? how would she find the time?. Trust me whatever 'scheme' would be put in place the child abuser would be one step ahead.
It's obvious that this nursery worker thought she would never be discovered if she wore the nursery logo t-shirt in the pics . If she was'nt discovered by the nursery only by an 'assosiated abuser' IYSWIM then she poss had got away with it for a long time . I just really hope she gets a tough sentence if shes found guilty but rarely is the sentence ever a deterrant to these abusers unfortunatly .

I live in Plymouth.. My ex childminders grandchildren went to that nursery, the family are devastated to say the least.
My daughter also went to school with the womans daughters.. they were in the middle of GCSE,s.. So many lives completely turned upside down.

CRB checks give a false sense of security; if a paedophile has never come to the attention of the police then the CRB will show nothing.

If you leave children in the care of others you can never be sure of their intentions. There is always a risk involved.

It may not be a popular point-of-view but the only safe option is to look after your children yourself. You can?t trust anyone else.

This is (to state the obvious) an awful and tragic story but I for one have not changed my views at all about sending DD (20 months) to nursery 3 days a week. And in terms of warning her about child abuse etc when she's a little older, I would tell her the same "stranger danger" advice as I got at school but I have no plans to spoil her innocence by trying to explain about abuse.

I know some will disagree with this (and I have no personal experience of sexual abuse at all which maybe explains my views) but as far as I know there is no more child abuse now than there was 50 years ago - it's just higher profile in the media, and paedophiles are more able to link up online and share photos. It doesn't mean children are more at risk nowadays, or at least that's the way I understand it.

Protecting your children is important, but so is fostering their independence and letting them enjoy their innocence and freedom. So although I find this story as socking and sad as anyone, it doesn't for a minute change my mind about childcare in general.

I feel so sorry for the children and the parents (hopefully some of the children will be too young to remember this) I feel sorry for the children of this vile "woman" also, I wonder if they have been abused .

I think it is always seen as more shocking when a woman harms a child as mothers are portrayed as demi Gods.

Women are just as capable as being evil, sick, violent vermin as men, we just like to think it is not so.

Enhanced CRB checks do show convictions but they also show where there have been charges which are then dropped and then where someone has been fround not guilty in court. They list everything including cautions and the convictions are never 'spent' like they are in some settings.

So they are a pretty good check. However as already pointed out some people have never been caught so in these circumstances they are worthless. The point is, there is not more child abuse now than before, we are more aware of it now of course. We just have to be vigilant and nursery staff have to be vigilant of each other, in fact anyone that works in child care has to be. However we can't totally eliminate risk for our kids and mostly the kind of situation that arose at the Plymouth nursery doesn't happen.

We can't afford to go into panic mode about this. Just be aware, make your kids aware, follow your gut instinct and blow the whistle if necessary.

cuppachar - hear hear

"Pretty good" is a subjective term. The woman in this case had passed a CRB check but yet stands accused of these serious offences.

An Enhanced CRB check tells you that the person has not come to the attention of the police, nothing more. It doesn't tell you if that person is safe to be trusted with kids.

Shocking and awful. She should be put away for life & this should actually mean life.

Lets hope she tells the police the other perverts she knows and that they remove them from society as well.

Cuppachar, you may be right that there is no more child abuse than there has been in the past, but Pagwatch's earlier post about the enabling effects of technology is spot on, and with this my impression (which I accept may not be correct) is that child abuse is being commoditised in some way

I agree it's being commoditised and it's undoubtably easier to get hold of child pornography than ever before due to the internet, which is horrible. BUT that doesn't mean our children are more at risk than before.

undoubtably undoubtedly

it's also worth bearing in mind though, that while technology seems to allow more of these images to be created/shared worldwide, technology also enables more of the perpitrators to be caught.

I can't help thinking that this will put the nursery involved out of business, even though no-one else there seems to be under suspicion. As the name of the nursery has been so widely publicised, I can't imagine parents wanting to send their children there.

'and the many carers who work in the voluntary secter?. '

My last FT job involved checks on volunteers working with kids. We took up references, did assessments in training on all sorts pf things,as well as full enhanced CRB; probably more chhecks than I had done on me when I was a paid carer. Ask what checks have been done, but don't assume the voluntary sector has less.

I do thin the internet lays a role but only one. When I grew up in Somerset we all knew anyone in the area who was 'dodgy', parents would monitor it and although we might not know why, they were people we didn't go anywhere near and whose every move was watched by someone or other. Now, i don't know the history of the people two doors down! My gues is that community living did at least as much to protect children as the internet has done to intensift risk.

Wannabe, i thought that about th nursery- I feel very for the owners and other staff, and it seems naming the palce will simply prevent workers fromo fidning other jobs, and stigmatise any of the kids who attnded.

I said to Dh that if our kids had been there I would have felt comelled to move away, reagrdless of what it took, so my children weren't lanbelled as one of 'those' children.

ironically that nursery is probably going to be the safest nursery from now on due to what happened! The scrutiny, the extra care , the 100% observation! but people usually steer clear from anything "tarnished"..it is human nature..

Zebede: Parents are more likely to abuse their children than professional care workers are. This is a ghastly business but squawking hysteria and paranoia do no good. This sort of thing is rare. It's actually far more damaging to children, and adults, and society in general to encourage a climate of constant, total paranoia where every adult is a predator, than it is to calmly inform them that they have a right not to be touched in a way they don't like.
There's not more child abuse than there was: the statistics on children being harmed by strangers are about the same as they have been for the last 50 years. If anything there is less because domestic child abuse is now taken notice of (when it used to be seen as something private, and nobody else's business because children were their parents' property).