UK paedophile probed over Madeleine

[loopylou6]

here
thoughts?

My main point, though, is about the fact that it doesn't cost us anything much to give the McCann family the benefit of the doubt as if they are innocent then so many of us have been very very cruel with our speculating. This seems so frustratingly unnecessary. Is it not?
By ToughDaddy on Sun 24-May-09 20:18:51

Still not understanding, sorry?

About the 'benefit of the doubt' thing generally. It makes sense as citizens if we are concerned that justice is not done. We see things on the news (such as the MP expenses) and think "this is not right. This should be investigated properly and the guilty prosecuted" So the concern about these things is justified.

When de Menzies was killed and the police tried to make it sound ok we didn't say "oh well I'm sure the police did the right thing" and give them the benefit of the doubt.

Onagar- your point is valid but in the case of the McCann they are very much in the focus of the police investigation so there is no need for citizen action on MN , is there? So I don't see that citozen action is behind the insensitivity in the press and on MN?

I don't think we can compare the De Menzies situation to the McCanns though can we? For example was it really the police that shot him?

layman: "Why don't you google the Marian Shrine Medjugorge?

Lots to think about.

There will be much signing up to Catholicism.

Let's hope they don't promote microchipping our children either when Madeleine the Miracle is found."

Could you explain further because I googled and it is Medjugorge is in Herzigovina, has a shrine children are supposedto have seen apparitions of the Virgin Mary

and..?

I was a bit foxed by Medjugorge too. I went to catholic school and at the time of the war it was still an untouched sacred place, but not sure of the relivance to this topic?

stinkermink - layman just likes to throw random things in ,

Toughdaddy - there is a little girl at the heart of this case whio has been failed time and again.Failed by her parents leaving her vulnerable and alone in a dark unlocked flat at night.Failed by investigators who haven't got to the bottom of why Blood , which is almost certainly hers , was found in the same spot as the scent of a cadaver.
Failed by those who have made this into a political issue failed by the British public who have swallowed the spin and allowed this to happen.
You talk about sympathy for kate and Gerry.How about some sympathy (and justice) for Madeleine McCann .

Katiestar- For the moment, I am assuming that the McCanns are in the best position to look for their daughter. Who else is going to make this their main focus? So my best hope for the ultimate victim is her parents campaign which we have no evidence to say isn't genuine.

Her parents made a dreadful error on that night but some of us could have made errors with disproportionate consequences. I haven't been 100pc on guard with my children and could have had bad luck.

I return to my point, if the parents are innocent, then wouldn't unnecessary speculation about them undermine the campaign to find them. Rest assured that they were under police scrutiny from day one. I am not seeking to make any political point. I only say give the parents the benefit of your doubt so as to increase the chance of the family (including Madeleine if she is alive) recovering.

The post below is so stupid that it really doesn't warrant being dignified with a response.

What a moron. Really.

Should be " return to my point, if the parents are innocent, then wouldn't unnecessary speculation about them undermine the campaign to find them Madeleine."

And to get back to the point, if the chap in Germany is innocent - as there is no evidence at all otherwise, then it is utterly immoral and uneithical of the McCs and their stooges (would have said 'paid stooges, but that might imply McCs paying themselves - fat chance of that!) to splash suspicions about him across the world's media.

There is isn't much that the McCs are doing that many of us wouldn't do if we had lost our child. Now some people suspect that they are making it all up. But I think that is speculation.

...so how can it possibly help to spread random accusations? I seem to recall their drinking buddies initally tried to put the blame on Robert Murat, an innocent bystander who tried to help, seems like unfounded accusations is their MO..

MrsGuy- might be best to suffix the above with the word "allegedly" ?

Some facts re the Goncalo Amaral conviction of last Friday.

The Judge considered it proven that the Leonor Cipriano had been tortured during questioning.

It could not be proved who carried out the attacks so the Detectives accused of those crimes were acquitted. (Innocent until PROVED guilty!)

Goncalo Amaral and another Detective were both found guilty of falsifying the reports - Amaral was given 18 months suspended for 18 months, the other Detective got 2 and half years I think (also suspended).

The Mccans until proven otherwise in a court of law, should be considered 'innocent until proven guilty'. We dont need to give them the 'benefit of the doubt.' In this country, at this point, legally they are innocent. Anything else is speculation and possibly even libelous.

Izty boy - this thread is not about accusing the McCs it is about the person they have accused.

MOTHN - good summary. I think a useful analogy is that the boss has stict liability for reporting an offence even if he is unaware of the offence. If I load software illegally onto an office PC, even if the directors are completely unaware of it they are still liable in law for not removing it/reporting it. So the jury decided that some perosn had injured L, they did not have enough eveidence to convict tht three accused, nevertheless, GC who was not one of those accused of hurtng her, as their boss was convicted of failing to report it - even if he was unaware it had occurred.

That may well be the case MG, but towards the top of the page people are discussing TD 's post re 'speculating' about the McC's involvement. I am therefore merely reminding people that in this country people should be considered 'innocent until proven guilty'.

I'm uncomfortable that it has been ok to suspect Murat and others (and now this guy) without any evidence at all, but not the people who were there and who have lied about exactly what they saw and did.'

Same here!

I think it's dead wrong and that man's life was thoroughly fucked up as a result.

If according to todays press the attempts to interview him in hospital have been refused where did they get the lovely close up photo of him?It is all ridiculous.There is no evidence of abduction at all and the story has changed a million times.I had a friend working over there young journo who was sent home for questioning a few things.Someone must know the truth but they are so well protected.I don't think they did anything horrific either but they have covered up something that perhaps occurred by accident.Too many holes in the story

the only thing that everyone is in aggreement about is that the whole picture isnt yet known, and untill those who are lying stop ,and start with the truth , no one will have a clue as to what really happened. I dont think paedophiles should have the same civil rights as they pose a risk too our children. I think it should be mandatory for them to disclose to the police any other paedophilles they come into contact with, regardless of convitions or not... so that the police can monitor these people . would make it harder for them to "get" kids and hopefully stop paedophile rings.

I don't think I've ever accused the MCs of a crime. I have expressed amazement that the statements of the group keep changing and that very few people seem to think that this is odd. That seems to be changing now.

I have no direct knowledge of what happened, but you don't need a lie detector if someone contradicts themself repeatedly since you know that most or all of the versions must be lies.

I'm uncomfortable that it has been ok to suspect Murat and others (and now this guy) without any evidence at all, but not the people who were there and who have lied about exactly what they saw and did.

When others in their party have lied I'd expect the MCs to be furious with them, but they don't appear to be bothered by that. Wouldn't everyone be? There you are looking for your daughter and your 'friends' are making up clues to put you off the track.

True, Mrs Guy, but of course there is the implication in this case that Amaral did know that Leonor had been beaten, but chose to sign the report that said she'd thrown herself down the stairs. From what I've heard that is the more probable scenario...but there I go speculating again.

Personally, I and many others here in Portugal think that Amaral(even without the above mentioned conviction) has very little credibility.

I don't blame the PJ for being unable to solve a case which was without precedent in this part of the world. But Amaral, what with his book and his documentary and his desperate attempts to mend his dented macho ego is just making a fool of himself even amongst the Portuguese.