the teenager who sold her virginity to the highest bidder to fund her further education

[pottycock]

I can't decide whether this is very sad or quite enterprising. A bit of both I think.

What did amaze me is that a medical professional endorsed her virginity at a press conference!

story here - warning, it's in the DM!

@ Dittany's continued use of 'the homeless woman' (are you referring to the the not homeless women I described?) as some poor creature in need of rescuing! She does not need rescuing, she did it herself by making herself appeal to a man who's lust cornered him into paying and providing a bed for the sex that he wanted!

Vittoria can I ask how old you are? I am guessing in your mid-twenties?

Why does my age matter MP?

Just very curious about your ideas about feminism - it's something that I've heard from a lot of women in their early-mid twenties. Wondering what informs you.

Lots of younger women haven't grown up with the messages promoted by essentialist feminism - it seems like you might be one of them Vittoria (and I am too perhaps).

Nooka - I don't think many people think it's 'great' per se. But then I wouldn't say working down a pit or shelf stacking ( both of which my parents were forced to do) is great.
There are many, mnay women in the sex industry who are exploited of course, but does that make the act of prosititution wrong in itself?
I'm not sure it does.
If a woman chooses to make money from her body and has proper choice, then why not? We can choose to make money from our intellect, our physicality, our voice, our imagination. Why not our sex?

Whaty informs me is constantly being told that I don't know my own mind, not by men, but women who call themselves feminists.

From my POV, feminism has succeeded in allowing me and my peers to live our lives and make our choices without the baggage - which looks something like Catholic guilt when it comes to sex - that a pervious generation had to deal with, as well as societal structures that proscribed gender roles. Gender roles are not proscribed anymore. This generation of women - well middle class women anyway - have truely inherited the feminist dream. But - and it's a big but - all we seem to get from feminists now is criticism and, dare I say it, resentment - precisely for making our own indoividual choices, and not following the feminist doctrine - which more and more resembled a totalitarian programme where the individual must subsume themselves into the whole. It is - to most of us - totally nuts.

There is a way to ameliorate the lives of women still, looking for anti-feminist discouse in books like Twilight is not the way to do it. Its about listening to women and understanding how the world has changed. A 30 year old ideology is no use to us or the women who need help in the here and now.

All I get from feminists is what Dittant posts - women are feeeble and don;t know when they are being exploited. That very may well have been true for Dittany's generation (or just ger circle) but it really isn;t the reality now. Bludgering us over the head with this anti-female (though paradoxically pro-feminist) discourse has only succeeded in discrediting feminism. Which isn't the same as pressing for equality or women's rights. Feminism has lost its credibility by not letting go of it's own self hatred and baggage.

We don't want to wast our time 'getting angry' - we just want to get on with it. And we do.

What is essentialist feminism PC?

"Gender roles are not proscribed anymore. This generation of women - well middle class women anyway - have truely inherited the feminist dream."

Oh golly, I don't know where to start.

What sector do you work in? Do you have children?

Women with money will always have more choices than women without money. That isn't quite the point though.

Whaty informs me is constantly being told that I don't know my own mind, not by men, but women who call themselves feminists.

I'm not really sure what you mean by this.

This is just what I expected. Listening and trying to understand is just too hard. It's all about asserting the negatives.

"What sector do you work in?" I amn a student from a working class background

"Do you have children?" Yes

"Women with money will always have more choices than women without money." And where is this different from me saying "This generation of women - well middle class women anyway - have truely inherited the feminist dream."

What informs me is constantly being told that I don't know my own mind, not by men, but women who call themselves feminists."I'm not really sure what you mean by this."

In your previous post - "Oh golly, I don't know where to start."

UK women earn around 30% than men. Women in the City earn 60% less than men. Women account for 2/3 of the world's poor, earn only 10% of the world's income, and earn 1% of the world's property.

Do you think these things are all through choice? Or do you think there is a problem here?

The trouble is tht younger women are being raised with the idea that they are essentially equal to men.
I know I tell my DD all the time that she can do whatever she wants. That she should not be constrained by her gender.
No doubt, in her world, feminism is an outdated concept.
However what she doesn't yet know is the disparity of opportunity still flourishes. That there is a paucity of women in politics, science, media etc. That the rape figures show women are still routinely fearful to reprot and when they do are not believed.
She doesn't know about the endless bills to reduce the time limit on abortions.
This is the dichotomy - what we tell our young girls and the reality of the world they will live in, no?

agree litchick

I think it is also hard to understand the ghastly nature of misogyny that exists in the workplace until you have been there and been spoken over, watched your male colleagues be promoted, watch your school peers excel because they have a handy wife at home .... etc...

I think some of them are about choices yes. That is not the same as saying discrimunation exists and that, where possible, womens choices should be ameliorated.

But there comes a point where women enter the 'partiachy' - the place where men compete agaoinst other men, often times savagely - and have to play the game by those rules. Men play dirty when they fight each other. Just because women want in on the game doesn't mean the rules are going to change. That is equality. Many women just don't want to do it, especially in the City, where they still earn substantially higher wages than the rest of us. City women are not women in need, they live a liufe of fantastic privledge relative to most women in the world. Its a travesry to say these women need feminism to help them fight their battles. They are already the winners. City wages are not a 'feminist' issue, but it is an obsession. Blue collar/part, time workers rights, maternity benefits, child poverty, rape, the terrible oppression of women in theocratic cultures - these are feminist issues.

Take Marnie Pearce. Here is a woman desperatly in need right now. Where are the feminist voices calling out for justice. Do a search on the Feministing site - no results. What have the media and academic feminists said about it?-nothing. They are silent.

Why? Is it becasue feminism hates it's own culture so much - the culture that gives it the the right to freedom of expression, to criticise, the right of an education, to benefits to bring your kids up with - and endless list of privledges that feminism incorrectly calls 'rights'. It hates this culture so much that it cannot demand that other women around the world be given the same privledges that they enjoy. What kind of a sick, useless position is that - yet they defend it endlessly - while Marnie Pearce went out of her mind in jail and has still not been allowed to see her kids since being relaeased.

If that is feminism, - then I would feel ashamned to call myself a feminist.

But there are other explanations as to why women

The issue of Marnie Pearce is a red herring. There is nothing anyone can do about that. Except perhaps warn their daughters not to have familes in Dubai. What course of action do you suggest? What can even the government do?

There are far more important (I'm afraid) issues for women to campaign against where changes CAN be made. Even if Marnie Pearce was allowed access to her children, it would affect no one else.

There are thousands of women in Sri Lanka holding dead children today - a far more realistic campaign for government intervention.

"The trouble is tht younger women are being raised with the idea that they are essentially equal to men.2

The TROUBLE is?? Can you hear yourself? This was the goal of feminism. You have it. Why does everything good and positive always get turned around? It's like a pathology.

"disparity of opportunity still flourishes." - erm, this is life. You cannot erase competition.

"That there is a paucity of women in politics, science, media etc." What all 3 etc? What kind of conflation is that. Actually there are more women in the media and in many areas of science.

"That the rape figures show women are still routinely fearful to reprot and when they do are not believed."

Where did you get this idea? Have you read the Home Office data on it? Its such a nonsesnce blanket statement as to be meaningless. They are asserted all in defence of a floundering ideology, that itself is failing women in real need.

Oh well if you say so MP. Let Marnie rot.

The argument that men 'play the game' and women just don't is not true. Women are just routinely ignored. Why should I not feel sorry for women in the city who earn hundreds of thousands of pounds less than their male counterparts? It's bloody unfair. Whether they have nice coffee tables or not is irrelevant. It's just an illustration of the realities of working life for women: they will watch their male peers earn more, get promoted more, and have bigger pensions.

"There are far more important (I'm afraid) issues for women to campaign against where changes CAN be made. Even if Marnie Pearce was allowed access to her children, it would affect no one else."

So feminism has embraged utilitatianism now has it? When did that happen? Must have missed tha memo from Ms.

And I think you will find you are quite wrong. There hundreds, if not thousands, of women in jail for adultery, rape, etc in the middle east. Marine Pearce is a way to get the focus on them. And has done already.

Well you stick to your relevance. If thats what feminism is, I'm fine with fighting the bigger battles but calling mysefl something different.

Feminism is nothing to me but nostalgia and navel gazing for the 'children' of 68. They have never grown up.

Let Marnie rot.

She isn't in prison. She is in Dubai still continuing her legal fight IIRC.

"That the rape figures show women are still routinely fearful to reprot and when they do
are not believed."

Where did you get this idea? Have you read the Home Office data on it? Its such a
nonsesnce blanket statement as to be meaningless. They are asserted all in defence
of a floundering ideology, that itself is failing women in real need.

Perhaps you'd like to read some statistics. Or even a Mumsnet thread like this

Well maybe you would like to read this which puts the context on bald statistics.

The study itself acknowledges that the figures are likely to be under-estimated: so 10% of women experiencing rape is the smallest likely percentage. And... ?