How will you vote on May 5th?

[victoriapeckham]

Just wondered. A little bit political...
a) how did you vote last time (if at all?)
b) how will you vote this time (if at all)?
c) what to you is the deciding issue of this election?
d) if you had to make love (not war) with one politician (past, present, senior or backbench?) who would it be?

I don't think you are being racist, as at the end of the day we are all entitled to feel what we want and its only racist if we use it to hurt someone. I feel a bit similar to you as I feel that way about housing and it really isn't fair that us that are born and bred here, who abide by the law, work in any job we can do to earn money have to come second best to those who are handed out everything and don't do anything in return. I have friends who have seen the same thing happening as you, except it was houses being handed out! I am not racist, those who say I am, I am expressing an opinion and one which I think I'm not alone on. The government are at fault as what is available is being exploited, this is the Governments problem to fix but they don't want to be seen as being racist because of people that see the slightest thing as discrimination. If you are going to go down that path, recognising anyones colour should be seen as racist as aren't we all the same?
We are always being seen as racist for whites against other race gang fights and things like that, but I know of many situatons where it is british people that are the victims in this, but it gets ignored far too much. We have our laws, we have to abide by them anyone coming into this country should do so also or put up with the consequences. Does anyone not worry about terrorist attacks? How many people have lived over here for years and then have been found to have plotted something that had it not of been found out about it could have been disastrous.

I?m afraid I do think you?re being racist. I think you are misguided in your opinions and that your views are based on prejudice and stereotypes. Refugees and immigrants contribute more to society than they take out if allowed to work, furthermore, Britain is hardly a poor nation that cannot afford to show common decency and solidarity with human beings in need. It?s sad to say, but race-hate crimes and racist attacks of all kinds are on the increase and views expressed by papers such as the DM only serve to perpetuate this situation. Unfortunately these are opinions you seem to buy into - the whole ?coming over here sponging of the state/taking our jobs? etc. The trouble is that the politicians of both Tory and New Labour are quick to exploit people?s xenophobia and win votes because they have no real answers for poor public services, rising crime and inequalities. I think we need to offer support and solidarity to those fleeing persecution not attack them further.

Hear, hear Naneth.

Don't know if it's national, but here refugees are housed in private accomodation provided by groups under contract with I think the Home Office. And traditionally they accept (when not prevented to by red tape) jobs with far lower incomes than whites will, and often longer working hours too. They contribute so hugely to our society. I think that globalization needs to be in every sense, and we need to accept that we are a mixed community now.

I also think the best way to stop illegal immigration- the biigest concern of which surely is the gangs that profit from it- not by creating more laws and persecution / fear, but by doing all we can to make their countries of origin acceptable to live in- by fighting for human rights, the end of war and the relief of poverty. I believe the 'outcry' from the politicians is deliberate to demonise those we should be protecting, to save money.

Surely the cheapest way to prevent unwanted (if it is a problem) economic migrants is to lobby their countries to provide acceptable wages and work conditions?

"And traditionally they accept (when not prevented to by red tape) jobs with far lower incomes than whites will, and often longer working hours too."

bit of sweeping statement that isn't it? what exactly is it you're saying about 'whites'?

and are all refugees non-whites then?

I'm sorry but if anyone had personal experience of losing out on something they are entitled to and then see it being given to someone that has used this country as a chance to escape something then you would find it difficult to just say hey I don't mind. I am not racist, one of my closest friends is black but I don't see her as a colour, she is a person. This country ISN'T big enough to house everyone, I need to move closer to family and we can't get help. I'm sorry thats how I feel if you see it as being wrong, but I can see why people get upset. I totally understand Munz point. It is hard enough to get what we are entitled to, whether it be housing, jobs or benefits.

I do have that experience, I am living in a house that costs 3/4 of our income to rent coz my DH got ill and can't work, but because we're not homeless we're not getting a council house. We had to sell our own house to pay for things like food. I can't work coz I can't trust DH with kids due to his depression and meds, but I can't afford or get help with childcare on one income. I hate the way the system works, it has pushed us into poverty and not exactly helped DH's depression, but I don't think that the Conservative solution will change anything long term. I just want more money put into changing the things that force people to become economic migrants in the first place, nbecause I'd like to solve the problem rather than just divert it.

maybe it was a sweeping statement, it was just my experience of seeing where the polish immigrants here are working- places that were going under because nobody would work there. I used the term whites incorreclty because I just don't know how to phrase it correctly.

I don't pretend to have very many answers at all, I am just haunted by what could happen to the one person who was sent back to danger by mistake, and by thes ight of those kids in refugee holding units.

Just to ask a quick question-where are the people who are born here supposed to live when we run out space? It will happen? And do you not think by saying "they" will work for less money etc YOU are being racist for grouping them altogether? Doesn't anyone care about us , British people? You are all thinking about other races, we may be a "richer" country but we are far from perfect and we don't all live in mansions. What about our homeless people? What do you suggest we do about terrorists? You have to think about the cons too. Not everything in life is rosy.

I am thinking about it, by taking the stance on other countries responsibility to their people with minimum wages etc 'they' what am I supposed to say for heavens sake? they means a group of people. refugees are a group of people. No offence there is there? It's a word. racism is an attitude. Big difference). Anyway, they wouldn't need or want to come here would they?

The absolute root of my beliefs is that if something affects a child it becomes different, and many immigrants (is that OK?) have children.
It's the same with anybody who isn't working or supporting themselves really (and yes we do work- just DH took a massive downturn in income when he got ill). Yes they make me angry. Yes they are letting the rest of us down with regard to benefits etc. But it's the kids. The ones who can't protect themselves / change their situation / have a say. We all have a massive responsiblity to protect any child, regardless of their parentage / origin.

I understand what you say about space etc., but do you think controls will stop people coming? Surely it will just give more power to the evil gangs and warlords that import people illegally and dangerously, and then hide them whilst sometimes forcing them into crime and prostitution.

I'm not racist, I don't expect you are either, obviously we have very different opinions- worlds richer for it etc- but please don't call me names like racist, I find it offensive. I had hoped that this was a more tolerant discussion- respecting others opinions however different they are from your own- but as it's not, bye bye! end of thread.

Reading some of these posts, I just wish it was possible to send some British people out of the country too! Seems like a lot of people who themselves feel hard done by society assumes it's because all the benefits and entitlements go to all these immigrants over-flowing the country. Britain has already got tight immigration laws. It's probably one of the most difficult country to come to illegally to. Some refugees/asylum-seekers we are "contracted" to accept and this is largely governed by international laws/UN. It has little to do with which party is in power!

peachyclair-you supported another member calling somone on here racist when she was only saying her point. Maybe you won't read this, but if you do: I do care, I don't hate these people. The only people I hate in my life are the ones who hurt me. I was trying to day that you can be seen as being racist no matter what you say. I think we should respect peoples beliefs but also understand that we have to think about ourselves too. I would never condone the harming of a child and by trying to say that by wanting to stop some of this is saying I don't care is completely unfair. We are all mothers and none of us would think it was ok to do so. I never made any comments on whether you worked or not. I don't work through depression and anxiety so I no firsthand what it is like. Just because I am thinking of my sons,husbands and my future ie where will our money come from, will we have enouhg doesn't mean I am being disresectful to you and what you believe in. I have enough worries of my own without being told I have to mend the rest of the world.

Had to read your message ! Zilch will power! Sorry, maybe I didn't explain myself well. I get caught up in stuff, not always a bad trait though.

I wouldnt dream of thinking you would harm a child. I was just explaining what my view was, and where it's origins are. I used to work for a charity where some of the workers (no longer there) were racist and wouldnt work with asylum seekers, thereby causing direct harm. It made me very sensitive I guess. On the plus side, though:

1. I actually admire you because I admire anyone who can state their opinion. When I put about 'hear hear', I recognise that may have come across funny, I was backing what she said in the rest of the piece: not the racism comment. None of us know each other well enough to call each other anything.

2. Because I recognised that after the charity job there were issues, I am going to train as a teacher so I can make a positive step against racism. So i guess that is why i didnt like being called racist myself, so far from the truth.

So I am sorry if I got too far into the discussion, lost the plot a bit I guess.

Still I do firmly believe that the most important thing for a democracy is people on ech side of their argument willing to battle it out. it's only that way that all groups get a say isn't it?

I don't feel hard dunb by this country, but I do feel let down. I personally feel this country is going down the pan basically, that's my personal view. day by day I see more and more illigal immigrants coming over here, nothing to protect our boarders. this is my problem illigals not genuine cases. not to mention if u want better health care and the end of MRSA my vote goes to the matron lead wards, might be old fashioned but if each ward had a matron to oversee and make sure everything was looked after than great. althou the problem there is we don't have enought doctors and nurses going tinto the profession apparently.

as for the wages - yes the (for want of a better term) immigrants, non UK citizens if that's polically correct will work for less, but then what happens to poor joe bloggs down the road who gets made redundant cos the immigrants work for cheaper? he can't claim benifits for what ever reason (which to me feels like becasuse he's a british citizen) so what happens? this is tyhe problem, they want to work fine fair enought but surely u should pay them the same wage as 'whites' I understand the lure for employers to pay a cheaper person but surely the governmetn needs to do soemthing about this? we have to stamp it out completely althou I do feel we will never get rid of the problem. as I say i've only know a labour governmet, they came into power when I was 14, I din't vote for them and won'ty be again.

quick point thou on voting - if it's ment to be anonomous, (sp) then why does my DH get letters/phone calls from the labour party (whom he voted for) and I don't get any of them, since this election run started we've had about 4/5 of each. is it a conisidence? could be but I think not.

I do like that about our society, the fact u can speak freely (of course being polically/ rasisly (sp) corect) and u arn't one of the ism's!

seriously thou we all have our opnion and should respect that, after all if we didn't we'd be no better off that the poor ppl who live in a country of dictatorship.

I live in a rural area which is dependent on immigrant labour. No-one locally wants to work packing carrots or plucking chickens and the local economy would collapse without workers desperate enough to do work that everyone else thinks is beneath them.

The NHS is reliant on immigrant workers too - it's hughly immoral because the nurses and doctors are needed by their own coutries but there it is. DD1 had her life saved by the Pakistani obstetrician who looked after us. My second section was carried out by a Malaysian, aided by a Russian and a South African.

As to the problem of housing, stopping second home ownership would be a start. And maybe John Prescott's plan to demolish 400,000 homes in the north isn't the best of plans to help this either.

no def not, that would make the prices up there soar, and us poor first time buyers struggle as it is - in fact if DH wasn't in the amry there's no way we'd be able to afford a house, and furnish it on our combined wages.

Agree with that about second homes- with the way prices are now, I can't see us ever getting back on the ladder. We live, and are moving to another, in areas where there is a lot of weekend ownership. That results not only in ridiculous house prices, but villages that are basically empty on a weekday and where the amenitiesa re lost. That happenned in the village we used to live, there was nothing, not even a pub, and on weekdays you felt like you could walk for years without meeting another soul. Not good for a SAHM.

short of rising the intrest rates thou i'm not too sure on how he'd manage to bring house prioces down, althou i'm still waitin for it to crash or 'correct' it'self as my DF likes to tell me.

munz, how do you know that these people that you see 'day by day' are illegal immigrants? And why does that mean the country is 'going down the pan'? I'm honestly not trying to start a fight but I do hear people say things like this a lot and I am curious to know how you can spot an illegal immigrant, because I certainly couldn't.

As for 'the immigrants work for cheaper', well, I would still stand by the argument that actually immigrants tend to do the jobs that many UK citizens won't do. I personally wouldn't want to stand around in a shed sorting lettuces all day for a supermarket and then go back to the house I share with 20 other people and send the greater proportion of my enormous wages home to my family in eastern Europe or wherever, but maybe you would be prepared to do that instead of the immigrant workers that do. I don't know.

And do you seriously think that Joe Bloggs can't get benefits because he's a UK citizen? Come on.

fwiw, I absolutely agree with you about matron though. Matrons with real power, that's what's needed lol

well it certainly feels that way to me, then again thou it could well just be from the places i've lived in, in Bradford they're are loads of centres there, I worked in an asian firm and saw the kind of stuff that's done to get houses, and but that I mean altering tax returns and accoutns in order to work it to their benifits ie/ they would have two sets done, one for a the bank for a morgage on a house the other went off to the IR. ( might I add I saw it but never participated in it)

answer me this then if joe bloggs can't get bernifits how come I couldn't get hem after working and going to college, after saving up and paying my taxes why was I declied the benifits which I 'should b' entitled to when the person next to me who couldn't utter a word of english was handed a wadge of stuff she could claim where's the justice in that? it's just no on.

also there r a fair few centres where I come from, and also would like to point out my home town was a lot safer until these centres were provided, about 6 months after one was inhabitated there was a murder in the city centre - yes it was an illegal and I know that cos it went to court and everything. u might not agree with my views which is fair enought but I am only speaking from experience.

Insedently I went to school with an asian lad an as many others have said I didn't even realise he was asian until I left home until then he was just XXX who's family ran the take away in the village. nothing against those who do come here to work/ r in genuine need of help and assistance, but have u thought thou why do they come across all of europe from france to come here? surely france is as safe a country as ours is?

Its mad how years ago they didn't have all the cleaning stuff we have now, but with elbow grease and a matron we didn't have all these nasty superbugs. Too much disinfectant thrown at stuff, not enough proper cleaning! I've probably got to go to hospital soon, for my wisdom tooth to be removed. I know its not a major operation, but I'll still worry about the cleanliness.

yes to amtrons althou could u imagion it some really big busted woman looking after u, u dearent smile for fear! lol.

I remember working as a nurse assistant, first thing I learned was how to wash my hands properly. Yet two months ago my cousins six year old dies from MRSA [sad} . I can't believe they can't do something?

is this MRSA a relativly new bug? normally u hear about hese things when they're at a huge scale. personally I don't go in for the mr muscle and such likes I have two spray guns one with bleach/water and one it discinfectant/water. what happened to gloves? do they still have to use them?

Yes, they still use the gloves. i think a lot of the MRSA comes from outside?

I like bleach too, when we moved into this house the owner aplogised because it stank of it, I thought YES!!!!

It works and it's cheap.