So will a conference on anti-semitism really make any difference?

[YaddaYaddaYadda]

I know I've posted a few times about anti-semitism (and I'm sure some people think I should give it a rest) but it's something that's really worrying me at the moment. There's a conference - see here starting today to look at developing strategies to combat the rise in anti-semitism but will it really make any difference? The optimist in me hopes so, the cynic in me doubts it...

MT - you asked about repercussions and I have had to ask myself why I am tooconcerned to get involved because I am not proud of myself.
Much of it stems from some cases I became involved in a coupe of years ago ( I'm a lawyer and an author)when myself and some other women represented some Muslim girls who were taken into care. We received threats and had dog shit thrown at us outside court. One letter said that I was an enemy of islam and as such I would be punished. I was never physically attacked but I was very shaken tbh.
In the interim the extreme minority are becoming increasingly vocal and active. Muslim women in partcular have been targeted with girls being increasingly pressured in respect of their dress and behaviour.Honour attacks have increased.
Non -muslims are 'encouraged ' to move out and there have been 18 reported attacks on non-muslim homes. The police do very little for fear of being called racist.
This minority are no more than thugs but they bully the rest of the community into submission. If I lived their I would be frightened of them and having had one taste of their medicine I don't wish to put myself forward for more.
They pretend they are religious purists, they may even believe it themselves, but their ideology is based in hate.
Hate of the jews, hate of the west, hate of women.

That's terrible Litchick. You should be proud of yourself. I've often been caught in the paradox of defending Muslim women and then being called a racist or zenophobe for attacking Muslim culture. No reasonable person (which I think make up the majority of MNetters) know that it is possible to fight an aspect of a culture without denouncing the whole (it's what I do with my own culture - without threats - as a feminist all the time!). And there's the difference really.

"This minority are no more than thugs but they bully the rest of the community into submission"

Sounds familiar but then I'll be accused of being anti-Arab.

In response to the subject of the thread, he instinct to flee among Jewish people is pretty strong after centuries of persecution. It wasn't that long ago German Jews were sending their very young children on trains to safety in other European countries. I don't think there are many out there who would ever take for granted that for example, the U.K. (or anywhere for that matter) would always always be safe for Jews.

See link below.

WW, there are real similarities with the way the IRA terrorised their own community- the kneecappings, abductions from people's own homes, summary executions etc. Possibly explains why Egypt and other Arab states haven't been as critical of Israel as one might expect.

Yes, other Arab states seem to have kept pretty schtum about Israel. Perhaps they'd rather deal with Israel than Iran? Who knows.

I always wonder why Egypt doesn't open its borders to Gaza when Israel has imposed a blockade. A blockade I disagree with before I get some ranting personal attack.

I think that's a brilliant post, StewieGriffinsMum.

Mom.

SGM - that's a really interesting post. I think I agree that it should be a separate conference.

That raises a lot of issues and questions, Stewiesmum (I?m a fan of AD too BTW) all of them complex. Yes it is a very human reactrion to percecution, especially if you have children. We all ?sell out? when we have kids. That?s part of the deal.

First it reminded me of the degree of Islamist (not Muslim per se) extremism that has occurred in Russia in the last decade; a huge amount which the western press have mostly ignored with the exception of Beslan (my god, and how terrible was that, yet it is forgotten..) . The russion jews probably made up a huge percentage of holochast victims (I think it?s safe to say, the holocaust happen in barns, backyards and woodland and not only gas chambers) Come and See is a very famous film that tells the story of this by Elem Klimov but it is little known in the mainstream. You can buy it on amaszon here www.amazon.co.uk/Come-See-DVD-Aleksei-Kravchenko/dp/B000EOTSZA/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=12352571 95&sr=1-2 If I ever recommend a film, it would be this one which has inspited speilberg and many more.

The Jews have been in Palestine for milennia of course, not just since partition. Which necessarily mudddies the waters of those w2ho just want them out becasiue they are ?offlanders?. Not a quote ? a paraphrase. My spell check?s not working. Aplologis.

This is what ? in my ignirance of what else to do, I admit ? I am coming back to more and more these days though: the ?human? element . Not the alliance by fault of birth, religion or annything else ? the human, i.e. humanitarian element.

As part of a ?human? brotherhood/sisterhoos we can all identify with each side. It just sometmes seems to me that it?s the ability to choose sides that only brings the human suffering aloive for some ? that there has to be some oppostition, else it doesn?t make sense ? when, Israeli?s or Palkestinan?s ? they are all struggling agaonsyt the same fear; anilation. The Muslim world seems to care little for Palestinians if they serves a greater cause in fighting Israel ? which is, for them, the legitimate centre of Jews. Somwthing they ahev never had and, I think, will not relinquish. But what should they? But Hamas cares very little for Palestine and even less for Palestinians. In this wasy, they are just as much as beleguged race ? they are offered up as a ?Hecatomb? (literally, in the case of numbers) for Islamism ? well fuck Islamism, I?m sorry. In standing up to Hamas, you are actually fighting for Palestine and Israel. That?s the only sense I can get out of this mess. Look at the human ? because we are all the same.

Main tyop - amongst many "It just sometmes seems to me that it?s the ability to choose sides that only brings the human suffering aloi for some"

alive - for waht ever seme it makes. Of you're still reading, you have my undying respect!

I have read most of the thread but not all.

I want to just come back on 2 things:

1 First the statements about muslims not being anti semitic and therefore it being a "problem" of the western world. I am sorry but that is not true. REad my post above about the muslim cleric and what he said of the second punishment coming to the jews that will be at the hands of the muslim believers. that is not an atypical or isolated statement i am afraid. Those posters who quickly seek to denigrate this by saying that it must have been directed against israel are either misguided or just plain lying. It is not direcrted against israel - these statements which are made regularly by many of these so called clerics are directed against the Jews - wherever they live and however they live. Please do not be naive and believe any of this attempt to deflect blame elsewhere.

2 About running away from teh UK - I was staggered - I can't put it any better-by the comments from Kate1956 about leaving the UK due to anti semitism and her implicatino that we have some sort of duty to fight anti semitism as Jews and try and sort it all out amicalbly. Has she not read the last 2000yrs history>? how exactly have the jews either been able or benefited from trying to confront anti semitism. We are a minoirty here and in the past have been very quickly overcome and murdered or thrown out.

What does she suggest - that the next time some criminal cleric looks forward in his sermon to the time that the Jews receive the 2nd and final punishment from teh muslim believers or that Lady Birdwood nutcase who spent her time in the upper echelons of polite society educating them about the myths of the holocaust and the dirty little jews that we stand up , clear our collective throats and meekly squeak " Excuse me please - we do have something to say here - would you kindly listen?"

do me a favour. Such rubbish would only come from a socialist worker. Brainwashed to believe in equality and a rainbow society of happy people all living in collective harmony with no religion and g-d not spoiling the socialist utopia . Its not the real world, Kate. It will not happen . And when they ask your religion and you try to hide behind your policitical beliefs and profess that you're only a jew by accident of birth, guv do you think it will matter? No, lass. Out on yer backside along with the rest of them love. Did Hitler care? You could have been a member of the monster raving loony party and converted to catholicism and married to a buddhist but as far as he was concerned if you had one paternal grandparent it was off to the gas for you.

The chants and taunts of the last few months ring loud in our ears:

" We are all Hamas - Jews to the gas!"

" Hey you, what are you Jewing?!"

" 6 Million wasnt' enough, Hamas will get tough!"

So don't give us the crap that " We have no truck with the Jews - its only Israel" or "If you would just be a little less jewish they wouldn't hate you so much" =- cue bonsoiranna in bourgeious Paris whose dh is ever so deeply distrubed by Jews daring to wear kippot or other clothing announcing that they are Jews that he is moved to announce that they deserve all they get.

Be less jewish and they hate you for trying to assimilate and be like them ( the reform jews in germany were the first to get it in the neck) . Be more jewish and they despise you. It's the world's oldest and most perniciuos hatred. No country owns it and no country is blameless. From the arab world to Europe and to the USA anti semitism is alive and stinking. Let no-one dare to link it with Israel.

Well, I'd disagree what it was the oldest and most perniciuos hatred. perhaps the thing that Jewery have had, before any other, is a sense of cohension that does seem to set it apsrt from other squabbling and struggling creeds - whioch gives it (for those squabblers) a much more defined atarget for their inseccurities?

I have worked in a bar before (worked in lots of bars biu this was a 'club' bar) and (wven when at the height of my delision about libera;lism and Hamas/Palestine_ told a group of men who were jokig about Jews, that I was a jew (tho am non religious and non confirmed) just to see that their reaction was...

lisalisa, I totally agree that it is either disingenuous or naive to suggest that antisemitism is greater among non Muslims than Muslims.

With regard to BA's earlier post, I do recall that Hitler looked for any Jewish ancestor and used to look at maternal/paternal grandparents' birth certificates as proof, but does this mean that there is a difference between Jewish religion and ethnic origin? Is BA correct in saying that Jewish people themselves define the religion so narrowly that a child with a non Jewish mother wouldn't be considered Jewish unless they converted? It just seems a bit self defeating, that's all, because I read somewhere that the greatest threat to the Jewish race isn't persecution so much as intermarriage and watering down of the numbers.

I also agree that it's very naive to suggest that the best way of fighting racism is to not flee and instead just mix happily together. Of course this is the best way in theory but everyone has to play ball for it to work. In Germany it was the naive Jews who buried their heads in the sand and assumed that nice Frau Fritz and his family next door would never be nasty to their cultured, middle class Jewish neighbours who ended up in the concentration camps. The Jews with experience or a more realistic grasp of antisemitism had a much greater chance of escape and survival.

As for the kippah, and outward signs of religion, remember the forcible wearing of the yellow star? It works both ways. Personally, I'm not in favour of religious dress especially as it can often be used as an excuse to oppress women.

very interesting that a thread on anti semitism has turned into '99 reasons to hate muslims'.

pristina, i wear the hijab, and your allusion to 'another excuse to oppress women', quite frankly, disgusts me.

lisalisa, you have referred to a cleric who does sound mad, and who I and most muslims have probably never heard of. you have used the quote of a madman to summarise the sentiment amongst muslims towards Jews, which is terribly unfair, and I question your intentions. Now I can start quoting lots of nasty and similar /WORSE things that Jewish leaders in Israel (not random madmen, but leaders, elected by the jewish population in israel) have said about arabs, that urge the extermination of arabs, burning arab villages, raping arab women, arabs as beasts ''grasshoppers ''whose heads need smashing etc etc, and come to the conclusion, as you have done, that the Jews hate muslims and arabs indiscrimantely. And I would have the stronger argument. But i will not choose that route, as you have done, because that will make me a hate mongerer. I would like to hear about LEGITIMATE muslim leaders , in the west, in this country, and what anti semitic agenda they are pushing. You will not find a single one.

You only need to read Theodore Herzl (zionist leader who took zionism onto an international level) on anti semitism in the west ''the antisemite nations will become our most loyal friends, the anti semite nations will become our allies.'' He is talking about western countries when he speaks of anti semite nations, not muslims and arabs.

you only need to read the quote of david bin guiron:

David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.

David ben gurion, again, referring to anti semitism not being a product of the arabs and muslims, but of the west.

herzl in his book on the jewish state, the father of international zionism, discusses jewish oppression all over the world and enumerates the countries wherin jews suffer from anti semitism. he does not mention a single arab/muslim state bar algeria, which was a french colony at the time.

"very interesting that a thread on anti semitism has turned into '99 reasons to hate muslims'."

Tosh. Utter tosh.