Sorry but the war in Gaza does not justify anti-semitic abuse or placards with swastikas on!

[YaddaYaddaYadda]

I've just spoken to a friend who went on the march in London today and feel physically sick at what she told me about some of the anti-semitic comments and chants she heard. She also told me about people carrying home made placards with swastikas intertwined with a star of david. I know people feel very strongly but how is this level of racial hatred justified??

And what does it tell us about Hamas?

Slur. No offence meant!!

I read your initial post about your friends being leant on about their banner.

I then typed a response mentioning you being at the march. I then re read your initial post and read it as just your friends being there and not you, hence the correction to friends.

But you were there anyway. Once again, sorry.

yes Dilletante, those comments.

Are they racist, or anti Palestinian, or anti Arab or what?

Heh no problem Bubble I wasn't offended I was merely confused (and apparently toot tired to interpreted posts accurately!)- it was one of those situations were italics could either be a friendly correction highlight (as it was) or a raised eyebrows tone

Sorry for misinterpreting!

Anywaaaaay. we're good.

I think that it's just wrong to say that the Palestinians are the victims of racism. They are not singled out because of their race or ethnicity, they are singled out because they belong a particular social group/or their nationality.

And yes, it does make a difference. To be recognised as a refugee under the UN Convention the refugee has to be persecuted on account of either race, religion, nationality, belonging to a particular social group (ie women, homosexuals etc), or because of political opinions.

If I was representing a Palestinian client, I would argue particular social group, nationality and probably political opinion. Don't see that race or religion would be a runner though.

Donnie why don't you answer my comments? Is it only ok to judge Israeli and Palestinian rhetoric? Surely that's rather racist?

Policywonk, would you also expect the hamas terrorists to abide by the rules of engagement? A group that recently marked the christmas season by legalising crucifixion and routinely uses women and children as suicide bombers and as human shields?

should have been a not after "and .. Palestinian"

well, my point is that BOTH are racist. Do you agree?

ahfeckitt, sorry not meaning to be nasty. the text messages/leaflets are a ploy to psychologically batter the palestinians, i mean where exactly do you go? no inch of gaza is safe. and the people are not allowed to leave. If you watch aljazeera you will see how ordinary palestnians are sobbing with fear and terror when they get these leaflets telling them to leave because NOWHERE is safe.

as for saying I am not a semite, i'd go with the oED over wikepedia anyday.

and i repeat, gaza is a huge concentration camp and israel is using WHITE PHOSPHORUS against CIVILLIANS. they are burning the flesh of children. They are using DIME bombs to amputate the arms and legs of small boys and girls. I have just seen it being reported life off ALJ. and with the image of a little girl without legs anymore saying she is willing to make the best of things, I go to bed.

So yes I'd say they were anti Palestinian comments. Abusive comments about someone's nationality or the fact that they are a member of a particular social group (Gazan Palestinians.

Donnie - since I've no idea what was said and don't have the patience to go through 8 pages to find it, no.

But it seems you have admitted that Hamas is racist and therefore people who support it are as well.

Sherazade no one is saying you are not a semite. The point is that antisemitic is a specific word that in common usage ONLY refers to anti-Jewish sentiment.

Semite and antisemitic have different meanings. Forget the etymology, which includes all Semitic groups: ?antisemitic? is used exclusively to mean hostility towards Jews.

OED definition of ?antisemitic?:
Hostility to or prejudice against Jews.

Could an anti French comment be construed as racist?

pooka - yes of course. Hamas is a loathsome organisation. My point is that MT keeps referring to this as a 'war', and it isn't. Israel has deliberately not declared war, presumably so that it cannot be held to internationally-agreed standards about the treatment of civilians.

As in, 'Parisians are a bunch of ***' 'Let them eat cake again'.

Don't think it would be, would it?

Are you talking to me? I would say, no, an anti French comment really shouldn't be construed as racist. It is not racist is it - it's nationalistic.

"If you watch aljazeera you will see " a pro-Palestinian slant because that is the bias of the channel.

They don't show the nice little bloodletting going on of political rivals and so-called collaborators who can be shot and then counted as civilian casualties. Or the little girls killed by Hamas rockets aimed at Israeli civilian areas misfiring. That would skew things a bit.

Any loss of life is awful and particularly when it involves children. Sadly it goes on throughout the world everyday in far greater numbers in Chechnya, Congo/Rwanda, Zimbabwe, Somalia, Eritrea, Iraq and numerous other areas which are happily ignored. If this was just due to an issue of oppressor/oppressed and loss of life why isn't the media and mumsnet inundated with reports and threads on these? So why is it just Israel/palestine that brings people out in such numbers? Is it connected to racism or anti-semitism?

Thanks, Dilettante.

Tigger15 thankyou for saying this.

I was remembering the war in Chechnya last night and how the death toll for civilians was officially estimated at 20,000 to 30,000 and was estimated by human rights groups to have really been over 50,000.

50,000.

But I don't remember so much violently anti Russian stuff in the same vein that people are coming on here to vilify Israel. Especially when lots of the Chechens were Muslim and there was a good case for saying they were persecuted due to that, so in fact surely there was more of a case to say that that was a racist conflict?

Yes S, "NOWHERE is safe." because Hamas uses it's own people as cannon fodder and hides weapons in bunkers instead of people.

Donnie - just one more point. If Israel is making any of these statements are they making them about the Palestinians in general or just Gaza? All the ones in the Guardian relate to Gaza.

The largest number of Palestinians are actually in the West Bank. Why aren't Israel attacking them or making statements regarding them? Quite simple - they have not been bombarding Israel with rockets which maim, kill and destroy daily life for the last 3 years. Is it racist to say nasty things about your enemy in one area who attacks you and not their brethen in another area who are not attacking you?

Horrible report on R4 last week about a Palestinian family who were phoned by the IDF and told to leave their apartment block.

They didn't tell their neighbours as they were terrified of being labelled as Israeli conspirators and murdered by Hamas.

Thanks Dilettante