The 'Underclass'. Discuss.

[MrsSeanBean]

I am coining the term the media use to describe people living in similar circumstances to Karen Matthews - never worked, 7 kids, 6 dads, largely feckless and with no apparent aspirations.

Do we have one? Why?

Who or what is responsible?

When did it all go wrong?

What can be done to resolve the situation?

Answers on a postcard please.

It is not 'very unchristian' certainly not more than calling children bastards.

Or does sin only apply to others

You may have swallowed the bible and memorised the commandments, but I think you have missed the spirit of christianity.

Mumsnet is ready for the debate. Here we are, debating, you don't like it I guess! You're the one who started to sling insults around first. That's the sign of somebody who hasn't got a coherent, intelligent argument left.

I am a Christian, my dh is a local preacher.

You are a bit of a nut or a drunk and definitely living on this thread without grace or love.

don't think I have been doing any quoting. Would you like me to?

are you one of the godsquad squeaky

will now stop being sucked in

Food stamps dont even work in the tiny way they are applied now- when dh was ill we got milk tokens. fab. Except that (at that time, more now) 3/ 5 of us were unable to drnk milk, so we had o pay for soa instead.

We could, I suppose have sold them- I expect people do, I doubt soya is what they spend on though!

Interesting about Km's income- I didnt know she was a fraudster in that way, though I suppose I should have guessd.

Now that is what we should focus on!

Shesells, I went to Uni to re-train as a nurse. Because I am married and dh earns more than the pittance that the government set for things like WFTC and Childcare expenses we had to fund all that our selves with me earning a measly bursary.

Tell me why you should get more help than me? Why should the government help some and not others, my husband works hard and pays tax and I had for 14 years before I re-trained, so why wasnt I helped?

However my friend, who earns the same as me, and he dh works 16hrs pw so they can claim lots of benefits has just bought her 2nd home .... so WTF is all that about. Maybe I should get dh to work 16 hrs pw because he could make up the rest on benefits with the rest of the blood sucking assholes

I also think that SAHM should go back to work when their children go to school, when your children are in full time ed you dont need to be at home all day, unless you can fund it yourself and then you can do as you please

I am practising Christin, and happy to be. I work hard to combine my liberal Christianity with tolerance and find they comlement each other well.

Not a nut at all, Laurie.

I think the breakdown of the family is the biggest problem that we face. Is it really that much of a controversial issue? Surely your preacher DH recognises this too.

If people waited until they were married before embarking on a sexual relationship, things would be so much simpler. You wouldn't get into a situation with 4x4 families.

Why is that so hard to get?

Why is the free for all so much better?

Spare the rod and spoil the child - it is not more loving to let your child think that anything goes - whatever feels good at the time and bollocks to everyone else. Rules for Christian living are very lovign because the alternative is that people get hurt - plain and simple.

i think it's mostly to do with heroin or crack cocaine

I wouldn't have the confidence to say yes I am a Christian, but I have an understanding of what is required and involved in being a Christian. Obviously a faith, and that would be the part I would struggle with, but beyond that, I think if a person is to behave in a Christian way they must be able to understand and feel compassion for others no matter how different and underprivileged and seemingly unable to help themselves they are. Also, a lack of inclination to judge and a desire to forgive and not dwell on small slights and so on..... generosity of spirit. But this is just by ad hoc interpretation.

There's a huge difference between glorifying a promiscuous society and condemning individuals for having sex outside of marriage. Zoning in on any individuals to judge and insult them is not christian. I'm fairly certain of that.

squeakypop, I think you will have a shock on the day of judgement when you see who ends up in heaven.

Jesus spent much of his time mixing with the under class in Palistine. He mixed with homosexuals, positutes, lepers, tax collectors and down and outs. I am sure he would love to have a relationshop with Karen Mathews. However Karen Mathews like the rest of us is given the choice.

Christianity is not about being an intolerant prude. Its about accepting and realising that God loves us unconditionally, inspite of our many sins. (not just fornicaiton... pride is a common sin. Jesus was very blunt with the Orthodox Jews of the time about hypocracy. And ofcourse he stopped a crowd from stoning an adulteress)

I don't think that bible bashing really helps the under class. I think they have always been there is some shape or form.

What is needed is pratical help to support people in their daily lives and keep families together.

"Surely your preacher dh recognises that too"

so now his opinion is more important than mine

Thankfully he is a liberal Christian too - as am I.

lol @ sea

Your piousness and thinking yourself above others and your pride makes you sinful.

Im not saying that I should get more help than you. I am paying for my degree with my wages that I work damn hard for, thank you. And if the tax I pay from that job can help a single mother back into the workforce through training courses and education and free childcare while she is doing this then great. It means that she will be then be able to contribute back to society herself and then others on a higher income who still struggle might be entitled to more help as there would be more to go around with fewer people on benefits because they have another option.

This thread is not zoning in on individuals but talking about hte problems that we as a society face.

The job of a Christian is to try to be like Jesus and to follow his commandments. It is also to encourage others to help them on this journey.

It is not to condone their actions that are unChristlike. This doesn't mean they should not be loved and encouraged to repent.

There is often a belief, perhaps the scourge of liberal christianity, that we should bless a free for all but that is totally unbiblical. It does not help people from getting hurt. It is not right to judge other people's actions but nor is it right to encourage poor behaviour, or condone it. The right thing is to take today as the starting poing and encourage the right steps from here on in.

But MC where are these jobs that fit so neatly around school?

Next year I will be looking for one, but I will have to be here for the SN taxi for ds3 at 8.30, and at 3.00 and to do ds1's school run as nobody else can for safety / sn reasons.

This year I am getting carers and believe that is right, as no job would allow the number of appointments / school trips / on-call nature of having a child who cannot be adequaltely p[rovided for but is waiting for a sn place.

There does need to be some awareness I think that whereas the last time I was in the market pre-Uni it was fairly easy to find work, jobs are shrinking daily it seems so it gets constantly harder to find any at all.

I worked with ds1 / ds2 and studied with ds3- but a lot of that time I was dependant on my Mother who no longer is close by. The difference is astounding. I know it would be somewhat easier if ds1 / ds3 were able toa ccess after school clubs, but even then jobs are in short supply- why would (for example) Asda employ me when Woolies opposite might have many staff far mroe experienced exiting shortly?

I do think i will find work wjhen I need to as I am good at my field and qualified; others are neither

There's something called workstart now that helps out of work people get back to work - we have someone like this at my workplace. She's not worked for years whilst bringing up kids and she gets 4 weeks with us to prove herself - which she has - which will give her a good reference for her next employer (which might be us). Brilliant scheme for those that are willing to do it.

I do think the so called "underclass" have been created by the benefits culture. And it is bigger than ever before - aren't there more children living in poverty now? [although not sure what "poverty" means - poverty of ambition, structure, moral values, good role models, stability etc yes, money doesn't give you these things].

How do you get more money as a teenage mum living on benefits? Answer - have more kids. And soon you have 4 or 5 generations all out of work living on the state.

Surely it's more cruel to allow people who could work to live off the state - both for them and their kids. Work is good for people in many ways. Very very sad that there are so many people's abilities wasted like this.

SP I do not accept my afith is a scourge bt you are of course free to believe as you do.

Theunderclass have 'training courses' coming out of their ears.
By and large they do no fucking good whatsoever.
Whereas a boot up the arse and confiscating flagons of Frosty Jack Would.

reallytired,

what did Jesus say to the prostitute? Did he say that all was well with her actions and her life? No he didn't. He said, "go and sin no more". That is pretty clear.

we are all sinners, laurie.

Which training courses are these then? I got offered an 'employability skills' course that I took because I was bored at home all the time and it was useless.

The qualifications that employers actually want i.e. degrees/I.T/office qualifications aren't offered because they cost too much money.