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Original poster

The 'Underclass'. Discuss.

472 replies

MrsSeanBean · 07/12/2008 11:33

I am coining the term the media use to describe people living in similar circumstances to Karen Matthews - never worked, 7 kids, 6 dads, largely feckless and with no apparent aspirations.

Do we have one? Why?

Who or what is responsible?

When did it all go wrong?

What can be done to resolve the situation?

Answers on a postcard please.

OP posts:
squeakypop · 07/12/2008 21:55

What is wrong with calling them bastards - isn't that what they officially are?

If you don't like it, you know what to do.

PeachyBidsYouNadoligLlawen · 07/12/2008 21:56

Oi moondog you better not mean me

Bubble, don't think a few hours would hurt at all- but also there are a lot of people out there who shouldnt be with old people, or the vulnerable.

Those who are suited might well enjoy it however.

having worked in private care, I suspect that a few volies in would = one more jobless person though, these places don't always have the most- erm- enerous of owners!

I would support reards for those who volunteer etc more than compulsory

fortyplus · 07/12/2008 21:56

dingdongmerrilyonpie - I re-entered the workplace after 12 years as sahm - as a Council housing officer!

Can thoroughly recommend it - most tenants are a great bunch!

dingdongmerrilyonpie · 07/12/2008 21:56

That's what I said. Let just hope it's not benefit paid for sauce.

aSpacePunkcametravelling · 07/12/2008 21:56

mince pie anyone?

Bubble99 · 07/12/2008 21:56

I don't think two hours a day community work is too taxing for anyone, tbh.

TheNewsMongersGeansaiNollag · 07/12/2008 21:57

True dingdong, and add another few obstacles on top of that... impossible.

squeakypop · 07/12/2008 21:57

I know several single mothers who go out to work, earn a salary, and pay for childcare out of it.

Being a single mother doesn't meant that you suddenly lose all your faculties.

PeachyBidsYouNadoligLlawen · 07/12/2008 21:57

sp I will pray for you

Lauriefairycake · 07/12/2008 21:57

No one is officially a bastard anywhere

Only in some warped mind.

randyforsanta · 07/12/2008 21:58

Chuck me a mince pie then aspacepunk ..

squeakypop · 07/12/2008 21:59

If it hurts a raw nerve, think about why.

Not my problem.

PeachyBidsYouNadoligLlawen · 07/12/2008 21:59

Bastard as a term for fatherless (really/ not my understandoing of biology) is wat out of date

whereas insulting and judging children is wrong and unChristian- suffer the little children.... remind you of anyone/

TheNewsMongersGeansaiNollag · 07/12/2008 21:59

Well I don't know about the UK, but even the term illegitimate has been officially removed from the constitution, as of 1994.

Meaning that most decent people recognised that it is name-calling with the purpose of attaching a stigma.

Is that something that you a Christian would want to do Squeaky?

fortyplus · 07/12/2008 22:01

I think that the answer to that is clearly yes

findtheriver · 07/12/2008 22:01

Shesells... I agree with much of what you say, and yes, education and training is definitely the key to raising aspirations. Regarding the support given to people who want to access training... to be honest I think there is a good deal of support out there, certainly things are have improved vastly over recent years. Higher education is a lot more accessible for instance.

It's been mentioned before on the thread, but it needs emphasising that a huge issue is about people accepting that to an extent it's 'no pain, no gain'. There is often a good deal of grind that goes with training for any job that's worth doing. And often there will be a period in your life when you may find yourself working for very little, or even no profit after childcare expenses - but people do it because they recognise the long term benefits.

I worked for quite a while and paid almost my entire income on nursery fees for two preschoolers, and before and after school care for my eldest. Some of my friends told me I was mad. But ten years down the line, I'm reaping the rewards - I have moved on further in my career, I have been able to open doors which might otherwise have remained shut.

I think an enormous part of the problem is the culture that has grown up in recent years of people wanting immediate rewards for everything. People aren't used to waiting any more. They aren't used to putting in the effort and learning required to be able to do something really well. They don't want to save up for things they cannot afford - they want it NOW! We have created a society where people feel they can dip in and out of whatever suits them for that particular moment. The whole celebrity culture encourages young people to think that there are short cuts to getting what they want. As others have said, there is a culture of 'rights without responsibilities'.

dingdongmerrilyonpie · 07/12/2008 22:01

squeakypop you've ruined a perfectly good thread.

We were having a good old-fashioned heated and argumentative thread here about the underclass and you came along and spoilt everything

TheNewsMongersGeansaiNollag · 07/12/2008 22:01

I mean in Ireland the term illegitimate has been removed from the constitution.

Even in holy catholic bible bashing Ireland common decent people recognise that it is name calling with no intent other than to stigmatise.

But if it makes you feel smug to be nasty SP? Is it a sin to be smug? Pride I think?

SheSellsSeashellsByTheSeashore · 07/12/2008 22:01

Are these the fathers that the csa is meant to extract money from then?

Surely it would better to use tax money to eduacte and then the 'underclass' could become fully fledged members of society and pay back into the tax system that they have 'sponged from'?

Or shall we just throw them all out onto the streets?

Also I am paying for my degree not you and certainly not dd1's useless excuse for a biological parent, who even though he actually works for them the governmnet still can't get any money out of him.

And i don't consider my family to be 'fractured' either. Both of my children have a loving father.

squeakypop · 07/12/2008 22:02

Having a sexual relationship outside of marriage is very unchristian, regardless of whether a child results or not.

It doesn't mean the child is unvalued or unloved in any way (although statistically.....let's not go there). Many children of unmarried parents are brought to baptism and celebrated. But it doesn't mean that their parents' relationship is 'approved' in any way.

TheNinkynork · 07/12/2008 22:02

It's too simplistic to say that the underclass are on benefits and it's awful, and all people on benefits must be the same.

Take Karen Matthews. Her partner did have a job, in Morrisons. They could still have claimed tax credits and housing / council tax benefit but they were greedy and wanted it all - her "lone parent" rate of income and his money. That's why they could afford to drink and smoke so much, they were stealing!

Food stamps wouldn't address the issue of outright fraud. People like this always try to find a bloke with a cash-in-hand job, a petty dealer perhaps, and the men always find a "bird" with a few kids and a house where they live rent-free. It is a way of living for people who wouldn't have the first clue about careers, mortgages etc...

TheNewsMongersGeansaiNollag · 07/12/2008 22:03

You haven't got a NOTION what christianity is Squeaky pop.

squeakypop · 07/12/2008 22:03

See, I have warned on several thread in the last day or two that mumsnet is not ready for this debate.

aSpacePunkcametravelling · 07/12/2008 22:04

right, punkys off to bed

nite all

x

squeakypop · 07/12/2008 22:04

are you a practicing christian, news?