The 'Underclass'. Discuss.

[MrsSeanBean]

I am coining the term the media use to describe people living in similar circumstances to Karen Matthews - never worked, 7 kids, 6 dads, largely feckless and with no apparent aspirations.

Do we have one? Why?

Who or what is responsible?

When did it all go wrong?

What can be done to resolve the situation?

Answers on a postcard please.

I object to the media's term the 'underclass' - but the people to whom their referring is a very small amount of people.

And I don't care (in a judgemental way) about such a small group of people - I mean I care that they are helped, cajoled as necessary to fulfill their potential but I don't villify them.

Thankfully the vast majority of people from lower social groups that I know are good, decent, hard-working people.

Films from the 40s/50s/60s show that society thought the working classes as exceptionally moral and hard working.

Very sad that that has changed now.

Yes, there is a significant underclass in the UK.

Because the "system" has ghettoised low-aspiration underachievers for generations such that it is extremely difficult for those born into the underclass to escape it.

I don't know when it "all went wrong". I think the UK has had an underclass for a long time. However, the quality of life disparity between the underclass and "mainstream society" (in all its shades and variants) has grown in recent times as most of society has got richer and more educated.

I think that the "any lifestyle goes", no-judgement culture in the UK doesn't help the underclass move forward. But I will not be popular for that opinion...

Groups of society have always lived like this. I don't like the idea of tarring everyone with the same brush. Karen Matthews is a stupid, greedy woman who sponged off society.

I agree with Anna's point about education - it is the key to escaping from the cycle.

Yes, the gap between rich an poor has never been so wide as it is now.

'no judgement culture'- don't agree with you there Anna. If a police officer can call Karen Matthews 'evil' and be lauded for it then somethings gone wrong.

I think what he did was unproffesional and if she is indeed sociopathic or suffering from mental distress then that is between her and her doctors.

I think the so called 'working classes' are / were the salt of the earth and without such a body of good hardworking, honest and decent people Britain would not be great.

But as you say, fairycake, there is a vast gulf between their values and those of people such as KM.

How can we help them though? Why has it changed? This puzzles me.

Anna - no I doubt you will be popular (though I agree with you!)

People always find the 'truth' uncomfortable.

I never liked it when my mother gave me a good dose of 'home truths' as she called it. But it invariably did me good.

In the 1800s people wrote about an underclass like this in British society because of the poor law. whether or not they were right or wrong, it appears as much the same thing. People had subsidised living, no other form of income and turned to petty crime.

Personally I dont like the term, but people like KM are part of a sector of society that isn't the working class.

I have no idea what 'values' KM holds though I can extrapolate from her behaviour that she has likely always been poor, had absent or non-working parents, grown up and lived in the same area, had unsuitable perhaps abusive relationships, inadequate attendance at school and not supported with learning at home - I could go on......

And I 'know' that that is all likely without 'knowing' her in any way ...

Evidence Fairycake, evidence.

She drugged her daughter. That tells me quite a lot about her values.

However. I didn't want to talk about KM in particular. She is just an extreme example.

But that's the point MrsBean - I have no evidence, only going on what is statistically likely.

Do we have one? YES Why? Not sure what you are asking here

Who or what is responsible? The welfare state

When did it all go wrong? During the 60s and 70s when people started to believe that anyone could do what they liked.

What can be done to resolve the situation? No-one has been able to come up with a solution. The only solutions I can think of are so draconian no government would dare to attempt them. You would need to start by removing the children from the set up and giving them something to aspire to. Boarding school with some sort of vocational training? Sadly the children grow up and turn into their parents.

The aren't actually "working class" people are they? They don't work. My ILs are working class. FIL worked on the railway (maintenance) and they had a council house. They are decent people who have always worked and brought up their kids to do the same. As are the vast majority of working class people. The underclass have an expectation of entitlement without responsibility.

Catweazle, do you think if a party did dare to suggest a draconian solution, they would actually garner some support though? What is the alternative? Wishy washy thinking does no-one much good imo.

Are the undercalss people whose parents/grandparents were the traditional working class, but are too thick dont' have the intellectual ability to get a job/keep up with society?

There is an 'underclass' and it is significant. There is a swathe of people who do not work and have no aspirations. They live hand to mouth on sink estates.
There was the opportunity in my fathers generation to 'escape' a life of poverty through education, ie the old grammar school system and apprenticeships.
Then there was a stigma attaached to not working, there isn't now.
To be educated was to be looked up to. Now people are mocked for being clever or ' posh'.

The working classes and the under class are completely different things. Working class peopl work and are honestly employed. The underclass are a totally different thing.

I think the big cause of the underclass is literacy problems. It is much harder to learn to read when your own parents have learning difficulties themselves. With the best will in the world its impossible to listen to your child read when you cannot read yourself.

Solutions to this problem like offering basic literacy classes to the mothers who cannot read are just not enough. A basic literacy class once a week is just not enough. Also there is a small number of people who through no fault of their own are incapable of learnng how to read.

I think there needs to be more support for these families in primary school. Prehaps in deprived areas there needs to be more LSAs employed to ensure that children from these families are able to practice their reading everyday with a literate adult.

There needs to be signifant help before these children become alienated by the whole education process.

Prehaps we need to look at the benefits system and whether we should make fit and healthy long term claiments, with no pre school children work part time for their benefits.

(You are not 'coining the term' - you are using the term, already coined.)

I think a huge problem is that people seem to have a complete lack of morals these days. Many youths dont seem to have a problem with walking out of a shop with out paying for the item or stabbing someone and walking off and leaving them. There are certain pattern of behaviour that are spiraling out of control and they seem to be ever so more apparent in poorer areas where poverty levels are high.

People need to be taught and show that they can work themselves into a good life. I think more work needs to be done with young mums as well. Im lucky that I knew what I wanted to do and had already applied for uni etc and had the support of my family and friends behind me. Many people are not so lucky and upon finding out they are pregnant end up taking a council flat, claiming benefits and becomming stuck in a cycle that is very difficult to get out of.
There are also a hell of a lot of people who are claiming benefits for fraudulent reasons and have been getting away with this for long periods of time. A lot of mmoney is wasted on these people who could be out working and contributing to our ecconomy.

I think that government and police need to take a harder stance on many things within society. There needs to be a huge overhaul of the benefits system so that those who need the support can get it and those who are taking advantage of it are punished and there also needs to be more support and encouragement for people to get up and do something with their life. (if they want to be a SAHM then thats totally different) but these days with tax credits there are many options for mums who want to work.

I really do worry about how much worse society is going to get before someone does something about it.

sexual, alcohol and drug abuse, poverty, crap schools, over worked an under funded Social Services, acceptance of unsociable behaviour, 'something for nothing' culture etc etc etc

I like the idea of more LSA to help with reading.

In my day, post 16, there was a voluntary subject (which didn't lead to an A level) called Community Awareness (or similar). We helped in special needs groups etc. Maybe this should be made compulsory.

'wishy washy thinking does noone much good' - really? I've run parenting classes with a friend and yes the take-up amongst those who actually need it is very poor but I'm pleased that at least there are ten families out there with better strategies for bringing up children than they had before.

And 'sure-start' would disagree too - they do make a difference

As does counselling for abusive adults who were abused as children.

I had an abusive, neglectful childhood and four years of therapy while I was training (to be a counsellor). I'm happy to report that I have not turned out a drug-addled alkie who's been in and out of prison (like many members of my estranged family)

I think that what we describe as the 'underclass' have always been with us and always will. They are not a static group-some of my friends have hauled themselves out, I have seen others join.

Seems to me we get most worried about them when we are avoiding looking at the big picture; economic melt down, global warming, terrorism etc. They are a nice distraction for us.

Through my work i meet healthy young fit
men, they don't work and have no intention of working. They receive benefit and commit crime.
They may have a few kids - by diferent girls. They don't have to support their children financially or otherwise.

They don't live with their children because the mother will loose their benefits.

The child although phsysically well cared for ( not always) go onto to be raised in poverty with a succession of new male partners - with no dtrong male role model and so the cycle goes ( depressingly ) on.

A bit of a ggeneralisation i know, but I do see people living this sort of life every day.
I don't know what the answer is apart form a complete overhaul of the benefit system.

Life is getting harder for those with low educational attainment. For example we are in global ecomony. Many employers would prefer to employ a Pole with an IQ of 100 but no English than English person with an IQ of 80 and no work ethic.

I don't think that the underclass are as big as the media would make out. I also don't think its 100% people's fault. Its all very well saying that Karen Mathews should have got a job, but doing what?

I would agree that a complete overhaul of the benefits system is needed. However its a balance between the tax payer being taken for a ride and helping people in their time of need.

double bluff - I too see so many young girls with children from different fathers - it seems very common. They live on benefits and have an "entitlement" mentality. There is no point going in to work as they would then have to pay their rent, council tax, nursery/after school fees, so they may as well stay on benefits. Who is going to go to work in order to be worse off?

24 posts in and no one has yet addressed the responsibility of large corporations in all this? Privatisation has led to essential jobs (all the cleaning, cooking, maintenance, etc types of work) being contracted out and contracted out again, wages held down and little or no job security. The deregulation of the markets over the past 20/30 years have allowed some people to get rich literally off the backs of others (run, say, a contract cleaning company, treat all your staff like human garbage, pay as little as you can get away with, call them self-employed or temporary workers so they have fewer rights, and then you can bid low for lucrative contracts and watch the money roll in).

This sort of thing is a major factor in people being trapped in poverty whgen coupled with poor education and learning difficulties that go unobserved and untreated because the child is labelled as 'underclass' and not worth bothering with anyway...