Baby P

[GeraldineMumsnet]

Hi, to make it easier for people who are finding this subject very distressing, we're going to keep all Baby P posts in one thread. If you'd like to discuss this subject, then here is the thread to do so. We'll go on the other threads and link to this one. Thanks very much.

I don't think anyone anywhere is making any kind of excuse. There is no excuse.

Trying to comprehend where the ability to undertake these acts come from is one thing. No excuses though.

But surely after visiting the home and seeing an abused child who has had his back broken, being told by a foster carer that one child has accused the boyfriend of rape, endless hospital visits..... for christs sake I am no expert but I would know for a fact if someone had broken my child's back.
Like a previous poster has said the trouble is with some professionals that so called evil people or whatever name you want to give these people (and I do agree that they are different from "normal" compassionate human beings),can pull the wool over their eyes, whereas other less "acedemic" types can see straight through them and know them for what they are.
It would not take me 60 visits from a social worker to know that someone had beaten my child to such an extent I can guarentee you of that, but then I am not afraid to look at a child and think that child is scruffy and smells what in God's name are the parents doing about it.
btw I do know that not all abused children are from "scruffy homes" of course not, and some abusers are very clever.
I am sick and tired of political correctness and people making excuses for shit parenting.
Rant over.

I know where you are coming from Luna, BTW where did you read about the foster carer telling? I had'nt seen that before.

There is no excuse what so ever as I say the services are not only failing those who have died as a result of the abuse or the children who are left there to suffer until they can escape they are also failing those who they do rescue by not giving them the proper counselling and support they need to teach them that what happened to them was not right therefore preventing them or making them less likely to become an abuser in later life.

It's nothing to do with being PC.

But I will stick to my guns and say I lose all sympathy for an abuse victim when they become an abuser regardless of how bad things were for them.

The girl who was raped was Baby P's sister.

I heard that on the BBC the other day Dee, has it been said outright now.

luna although it goes against the grain for me, as a leftie person, I have to agree that the people looking into these cases and families need to be able to use their common sense when seeing these children.

I know a GP who has a very un PC attitude to families who he describes as "scum" - but I suppose the problem lies in - at what point does a family environment tip from being less than ideal to being abusive? At the moment it looks like the drive to leave children at home wherever possible is backfiring quite badly - but we don't want to end up with loads of children being removed with no real reasn - just because SS disapprove of their lifestyle.

It is a hugely difficult balancing act, and one I don't envy SS.

However in this case it looks pretty cut and dried, that one of the scores of visits should have resulted in the child/ren being removed to safety.

Peter was removed several times, he was put into foster care IIRC and his dad tried to take him but the mother called the police and they brought him back.

When he was taken into care his mother was taken in and investiagted but for whatever reason he was returned to her, this was when he was about 10 months I think.

I could be totally wrong but I vaguely remember hearing that info.

You have to wodner did that baby ever have ahappy day in his life?

He was perfectly happy in foster care for a few weeks by all accounts, ate and slept well and tellingly, sustained no new injuries.

I was sickened to read of the attacks on Peter's sister and outraged to discover that walking into the middle of one and saying, "Don't do that. Just don't do it" and then leaving is what gets you AQUITTED of a charge of Child Cruelty!

*Acquitted. Knew it looked wrong.

ninky the mum walked in on the daughter being raped and that is what she did?

Fucking hell I think I'm going to be sick.

The scumbag who is defending her has clearly made a convincing case that she was terrified of her boyfriend. Strange that she never made use of the social worker, health visitor or the police regarding help given the amount of contact she had with them on her own. It would have been easy but she didn't do it. Nobody knew that he and his brother were there.

She even tried to deny that they were in a relationship when P died despite being 5 months pregnant.

regarding the mother, I think the fact is although she should OBVIOUSLY have stopped it, it was the stepfather that was the originator, and without him these children would not have been abused.

Clearly therefore he should have been punished more.

BigB- I understand exactly what you are saying about there being a difference between "undesireable" parenting and obvious abuse/neglect.
I was at first supportive of ss who I know have adifficult job to do.
However, afeter finding out about the rape, and yes it has been reported that the mother did witness the rape, I ask the question at what point do the "professionals" whose job it is to protect those who cannot protect themselves, belive that enough is enough. This clearly to anybody with one once of decency or brain cell, is not simply a case of undesireable parenting but of complete and utter abuse of the worst kind.
For all we know the other children may also have been severely abused and/or neglected but may be too traumatised to ever disclose it.

The mother abused Peter before the step dad was on the scene.

Exactly mamadiva - she had already begun the process of dehumanising and vitimising them. The degradation just got worse when he turned up. She was very involved in the violence towards Peter also.

Please can we not refer to that bastard as their step father. He was the mother's live-in boyfriend. He was no kind of father.

If the mother witnessed the rape and didn't defend her (?) child or at least report the crime then I think she is fully culpable in that crime and I really fail to understand why she was acquitted - what a farce of so called justice.

I'm not a violent person but if anyone tried to rape my child I would in all possibly kill that person to stop them - I'd risk being killed myself to defend that child.

I hope the remaining children in that household who witnessed/experienced all that brutality and neglect recover from such totally hellish beginnings in loving foster/adoptive care.

Yes Skydancer but we must all pussey foot around those poor, poor parents who cannot do a basic job of actually caring for their child on even a basic level. God forbid that anyone should actually state what is blindingly obvious and accuse the "mother" of being a sadistic, evil, scummy bitch who should have had her children removed from her and taken into care where they could have received love and been kept safe. Oh no we don't want to upset the applecart do we.

Strangely in this case SS seem to be taking the brunt of the blame, yes they did wrong but when you are under that level of pressure there are going to be failings. I just hope that the government wake up and realise that more money needs to put into public services and decent training for these types of people to ensure that they can do their work effectively andstop cutting corners to fit in their massive workloads but instead 2nd homes and new appliance's seems to be top of the agenda for them. Although I am not excusing those who made momentous errors of judgement here.

There is no doubt in my mind that the 'mother' of those children had a warped mind and that bastard just came in and made it much, much worse for them. If you ask me when it gets to this extent they should be seriously mentally assessed because there are clearly problems here and locked up until the day they die! No sentence will ever be enough for the children who's lives they have probably ruined one way or another.

I just hope and pray that they are given the counselling and support they need to somehow get over this if they can they have seen more horror and trauma than anyone should and they will need a lot of help to get back to normality and learn to love and that love does not mean being raped, beaten, starved and shouted at because right now that is probably what they thought was right because it's all they knew

I have no sympathy at all for people like those monsters and don't really care what their sentences are now my thoughts are with the children who survived that house and how they are going to rebuild their lives, their confidence andmost of all their self worth!

This gets worse. I cannot believe that that woman witnessed such a thing with her daughter and did nothing. I'm horrified that she engaged in the violence towards baby P as well. How the hell did she get acquitted? I've never had any sympathy for anyone but the children in that house but somewhere I suppose I'd hoped the women felt a scrap of humanity towards her kids and was powerless to prevent it. I agree totally that the pair of them should be locked up for life. Sadly in a lot of these cases which are unfathomable for decent parents/people, the mother is being abused too and is incapable of stopping it but here it looks like she had lots of opportunities.
Hopefully the other kids will now be looked after properly and some good will come from all this. I cant get this case out of my head-its vile. There have been a few others since as well and the sentences are never long enough.
The adults in that house are wholly responsible but I can't help wondering where was the father and his family? I know there was an attempt by him to take the baby but could he not have done more too?
Hopefully Peter got some affection from his foster parents or siblings during his life. All this really makes me wonder if there's a God at all.

what a shambles

Unbelievable. So SS have lied about the mother misleading them. Looks like they said she concealed the new boyfriend from them while in fact she told them all about it and they taped it.

And that the police kept asking for baby P to be removed and SS said no?

Total shambles. WTF went on in the minds of the SS people it is beyond me.

Sharon Shoesmith has been sacked. And so have all 4 social workers involved in the case. But that must not detract from the need to improve social services in terms of more social workers, better training and supervision and less form filling.

Thing is blueshoes, and I know what you're saying, but it wasn't a case where the failings were due to lack of communication between agencies or because of excess paperwork. It wasn't that things were overlooked due to not enough time etc IYSWIM.

The police made it clear that they were convinced the child was being abused, and requested the child be removed, and SS said no.

So that's down to someone/some people actively making a terrible decision, not paperwork or caseloads.

The doctor who saw the child also needs to have the book thrown at him/her IMO as well.

I don't know enough about the case to be able to lay the blame squarely at the feet of the social workers. It would be a comforting thought (in a morbid way) that the rot would be resolved by putting different social workers in place. But the issues in Haringey highlighted by Victoria Climbie still persist years later in Baby P. I believe these 2 horrendous cases are just the tip of the iceberg. I somehow feel there is institutional failing in Haringey on a larger scale than social workers in Baby P's case not listening to the police or a doctor making a devastating mistake. A deep deep malaise.

I just don't know either blueshoes. It was that quote in the article:

"A senior officer wrote in his log: "This situation cannot continue."
He goes on: "I am at a loss as to why our position is at variance to that held by social services. Our concerns for Baby P are valid."

which makes me feel cold. It's not speculation that the police were desperate to have the child removed and SS refused. It was all recorded.

Baffling.

Somewhere along the line the purpose of Haringey SS must have got lost, the people working there must have been working towards something other than what you would assume was obvious.