Baby P

[GeraldineMumsnet]

Hi, to make it easier for people who are finding this subject very distressing, we're going to keep all Baby P posts in one thread. If you'd like to discuss this subject, then here is the thread to do so. We'll go on the other threads and link to this one. Thanks very much.

i am not in Haringey

but i must speak up in support of childrens services and child protection...

my own experience of them when reporting an historical experience of abuse was amazing

they were quick to respond and bar one or two human errors - pretty damn tip top in there treatment of the whole situation

the case of baby peter is terrible i the extreme but in some cases the police and authorities do provide inE an amazing standard of care and response

Really makes me shudder to think that these poeple will more than likely be out within the next 10 years.

Am in tears again I forgot that there were kids saying they thougt he died of lonliness.

I remember when I first heard about this I cried and cried just looking at my son I could actually picture his body bruised and battered it terrified me as Peter was only 2 months older than him.

...Must pull myself together no point in crying...

mama - yes your tears are well founded...

Oh wonderful. Classified as a traveller and given a 4-bed house in London within months of her marriage breaking up. A house where the three older children must have been sharing so that the boyfriend's brother and underage GF could have a room to themselves.

My Inner-DM-Reader is frothing at the mouth!

Is there not in place, amongst all the paperwork and directives SS has, a Universal Cross-Cultural standard for acceptable parenting? Something which precludes say, beating for whatever reason and insists on a basic level of nutrition and supervision?

I have every respect for most social workers PaulaYates - I think they do an amazing job in what must be some horrendous situations. But I think that there is a failure among some councils to act and Harringay is one of them. As Lord Laming said when I heard him interviewed today, it is not up to social workers or councils to decide if children should be taken into care, it's up to the court. If there is any suspicion children are being abused, SWs must escalate.

God Mamadiva I'm so sorry. My DS was the same age as Baby P when the case was first discussed and it was very hard. I did the same as you did. Cuddled him tighter and kissed him extra for Peter whom he so resembles. Sorry again

I don't understand that either Ninky!

A child is a child should not be beaten, starved, raped, neglected or abused just because of background. I would have thought that was a given right?!

I think Peter had a room of his own sadly from what we have heard anyway because it was stated taht no one was allowed in his room without the boyfriends permission a=even when he was screaming in pain, that horrid dingy place how could anyone say it was suitable for kids in there?

Do you know thinking back over the details I really do think I could kill them without so much as a seconds hesitation or a 2nd thoughtif you put me in a room with them!

I really struggled with the story too mamadiva - had nightmares about it. My DS is the same age

as a child my ( abusive) mother called sw in for some reason to asses me

she was abusive
she called them in...

I feel that social bias - stopped them from thinking i was at risk

they looked at where we lived and how educated my mother was and made value judgements...also the fact she called on them has always made me wonder ???

i was then left by the mother - to be abused by the father

highly unlucky - but no one was looking....

I can therefore at least understand how i ducked under the radar

I will never ever understand how children well known to ss duck under the radar...how they end up raped and dead.

It is beyond me.....

Ninky why are you sorry?

it's just one of those cases (I think on Mn it's called my competitive saddening) which upsets me but for some reason I need to know all the details and stuff because somehow it makes me feel as though people did'nt care enough in life if I could spot something that resembles the way he did towards the end in another child then he would've helped in a way.

It's just that I am waaay t sensitive taht's all dont be sorry!

Do I sound mental? I know what I mean!

God PaulaYates, that's awful I'm so sorry. I'd like to think that SWs make decisions based on something more than class but there are so many cases where they don't. So many children let down, by the people who are supposed to care for them and protect them, and then by the agencies who are supposed to step in when the parents fail. Terrible, terrible

Oh thank Christ the "competitive sadding" people aren't here I remember it all too well. If you think you sound mental then you really wouldn't want to hear about my dreams about going back in time, snatching the children from that house and er, putting the kettle on for the adults

PaulaYatesBiggestFan have you been away? If so, a huge warm welcome back from me! I think PY was fab. What happened to you happened in a very minor way to me too. My mother was hugely toxic and convinced people in authority that I was unstable and a liar. How bloody awful for you and how courageous and strong you are

Paula yes i know what you mean.

I'm sure plenty of abuse goes on all over the place but it's "hidden" as the parents have never come to the attention of any authorities, they live a lifestyle which makes no-one think it would happen etc.

It's just so hard when it's like this and people have been keeping a very close eye and it still happens.

A doctor I know says that the doctor who failed to notice the baby had a broken back needs to be held accountable, as that's just ridiculous. The doc can't have examined the baby at all. So it's not just SS, it's the medical people, the police I believe were involved as well etc. Unbelievable that it had to end with the death.

there are so many things like this though, you wonder why/how the media fixate on one case while all the others fall by the wayside.

I am growing to hate the media.

Oh yes the doctor said that she was under the impression that Peter was sent to her regarding an SS concern about his "behaviour". Wha-aaat? 17 months old how bloody anti-social could he have been? Headbanging, eating dirt and a marked unawareness of pain was in the reports. Alarm bells? Apparently not. That hospital visit was IMO the greatest of all the injustices he suffered at the hands of those who could have protected him. I've said it before but if he had been X-Rayed, old and new broken bones discovered, he would not should not have been returned to that house and been subjected to the attack which took his life that very night.

Now I am going to kiss DS again and drink wine. Hope to see you on MN again soon mamadiva and BBBB.

Thankyou all for your support

i dealt mith the paternal abuse 20 years after it occurred but (oddly and very very ineterstingly) my case was successful BUT those in the know said i probably put forward a better case and was ( sorry bit it has to be said) more believable as an adult than as a child

I was only taking issue with the paternal abuse but ss and 'the authorities' were very interested in the maternal abuse that came up in my history...... they wanted me to make a case but i was too exhausted etc to do so....

i find it odd that they were so good in hindsight and shocked at what had gone on... the courts seemed really astounded that this sort of thing had gone unnoticed

me too actually

but apparently it is not all history

But it is a fine line.

My own childhood would have been better in care, I strognly believe however that MOST children are better off with mummy

I'm going to have a glass of wine too.

Enjoy your evening ninky

the broken back thing is too astounding for words

too bloody sad

paula is it possible that you got a good and helpful reaction from the authorities because, as you say yourself, you came from an educated background, are eloquent yourself etc.

I just wonder often how differently they treat different sorts of people.

i was very interested to see how differently the police treated things that happened to me when I reported from my own flat, as opposed to another time reported from my parents large detached house.

When at my parents they couldn't do enough for me...

bbb yes you are right

In a courtroom you have to be 100% bright quick witted - on your guard

during my ordeal court case - i swore i would work with other women and share my experience to help them...

the whole thing was designed to trip you up and show you to be a liar

that was court though - and from what i have learned - most do not get that far..

sorry to ramble but yes bigbella you are right

See you soon Ninky I'm never off MN so I'm sure you'll see me again Enjoy your night!

We should star a happy thread does'nt seem right talking away on here for some reason!

I am so glad all of you managed to get through the rough patch in your lives and come out of it with strength and probably turned out to be better parents because of it!

My dad was badly abused as I have said before on this thread and he never once raised a hand to any of us that is why I always hate the argument about it's so sad because theyw ere abused as if it somehow excuses it!

paula I am sorry that you had such a terrible experience.

I still cannot believe they put a 4 year old through cross examination.

that almost upsets me more than the other stuff. Some people inflict evil in their own homes, which is terrible.

But to have the court inflict further emotional abuse (and I would call it that) on a child so small, to have the people in charge who you're supposed to be able to trust accusing you of lying? That's hard enough for an adult to deal with.

What did they think they were doing?

I would also ask, in a way, if the man is going down indefinitely for the murder of baby p, why the need for this type of conviction for the rape as well? Why the need for the cross examination? Why did they subject the little girl to it to get a man prosecuted who I doubt would have been seeing the outside for many many years anyway?

maybe they just showed the court video evidence? or was it definitely cross examination

the judge did say 'summed the accused up' that he let the little girl undergo this on top of the act itself

The telegraph link further up the thread has transcript of the cross examination, and the article has further detail.

i just don't understand it. I didnt think this was what happened in cases involving children.

i hate it when I go around the place thinking things are done one way and then suddenly realise that the reality is wholly and cruelly different.

poor little girl.

New to the thread.
If what we are summising is true ie that the little girl who was raped was in fact baby p's sister, and this was reported before baby p's death, then why on earth were the children not removed from the family home?
I cannot believe this has been allowed to happen.
Exactly how bad does it have to be before ss or any other responsible figure steps in and stops the abuse.
I am angry at a lot of people: child's mother, mother's boyfriend, lodger, child's "real father", social workers, doctors........the list goes on.
Agree with other posters re political correctness gone mad. Lets all stop making excuses and not be afraid to say when someone is an unfit parent.

I lose whatever liberal lefty views I may normally have in relation to this case and the heinous crimes committed by the accused. The man should never be allowed out of prison - he'll always be a huge danger to children and has forfeited the right to freedom. The woman - I don't know the full story but she knew what was happening at very least and so is an accessory to murder - and possibly this other case of rape. It is extremely sad and wrong that the abusive duo or trio were not stopped when abuse (of more than one child in the situation) must have been obvious for anyone but the blind to see. Just needed to let off steam there...