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Baby P

821 replies

GeraldineMumsnet · 17/11/2008 12:38

Hi, to make it easier for people who are finding this subject very distressing, we're going to keep all Baby P posts in one thread. If you'd like to discuss this subject, then here is the thread to do so. We'll go on the other threads and link to this one. Thanks very much.

OP posts:
Caz10 · 21/05/2009 21:00

I've just read this piece on the BBC and made the mistake of looking at the photographs, which include a mock-up of Peter's facial injuries and bloodstained clothes . That little vest has just made me cry more than any of the articles have.

dongles · 22/05/2009 08:12

The mother seemed to have social services wrapped round her fingers for a long time, and maybe thought she could manipulate the judge as well. But the judge will have heard all the evidence...One of the prosecutors said that she sacrificed her child for her lover, which seems to sum it up well.

From the other trial, she even walked in while Peter's 2 year old sister was being raped and just said "oh stop that will you" before walking out again. She managed to get let off in that trial.

The trouble is that legally, the sentences for causing or allowing a death are very low, so even the maximum sentence won't be much. We could learn some lessons from America sometimes.

But nothing can turn the clock back, or wish away the suffering he endured. Such a horrifically sad case.

fifitot · 22/05/2009 08:17

If you read what her barristers have said in her defence.....god I know they are doing a job and are paid to represent their clients but the rubbish they have spouted is unbelievable.

dongles · 22/05/2009 08:26

Yes, a good barrister with unlimited funds from the taxpayer can be a very dangerous thing. I don't know how some lawyers can switch off though. I've worked as a solicitor in the past, and one of the reasons I would never want to return to it is that I couldn't deal with the one or two (proven) physically and sexually abusive parents we had as clients.

SomeGuy · 22/05/2009 10:59

evil stepfather given 12 years for killing Peter and life for the rape. But he will serve no time at all for the killing because it's to run concurrently with the 'life' sentence.

The mother's sentence will probably be 10 years, which realistically means she will be out in 4 years from now.

SomeGuy · 22/05/2009 11:11

And mother to serve 5 years minimum and 'lodger' to serve 3 years minimum. After which they will be let out if they're determined no longer to be dangerous. Not sure if that includes time already served.

www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=indeterminate+sentence

SomeGuy · 22/05/2009 11:27

apparently 'life' means 10 years for the rapist (the 12 years for causing the death would be discounted to 8). So he'll be out in 8 years, having served 2 already.

MoominMymbleandMy · 22/05/2009 12:21

It is not a surprise, sadly. I have always found it bizarre that the criminal justice system imposes more punitive sentences for crimes against property and finance, than people.

The men, who tried and failed, to steal a shiny lump of carbon from the Millennium Dome, hurting no-one in the attempt, got far longer sentences.

So a baby's dreadful life and death is worth less than a diamond. I am sickened and saddened that, as a society, we have failed Peter again.

fifitot · 22/05/2009 12:56

These are the best sentences in the circumstances. Unfortunately they couldn't be charged with murder as there was no way to prove it so the lesser charge carries a lesser sentence.

However I am pleased to see they got the indeterminate sentences. Ignore the bit about the tariff and the minimum they must serve because that is what the judge must legally order. BUT on this kind of sentence they CANNOT be released from prison without the parole board saying they can and they must prove they no longer pose a risk to children.

Think about it - given the high profile nature of this case, no parole board will be even considering release for a very long time. And on release they will be supervised by the probation service and police for a significant period.The process to gain release from these sentences is very robust. They will not easily fool psychologists and probation officers like they did social services - because the true nature of them is known and documented.

Maybe it's not what people would have liked but in the circs they are sentences which are the most punitive. If the judge had given them a determinate sentence, they would have been out of jail, unsupervised half way through.

SomeGuy · 22/05/2009 14:05

Chris Lewis got a longer sentence for smuggling cocaine.

However I am pleased to see they got the indeterminate sentences. Ignore the bit about the tariff and the minimum they must serve because that is what the judge must legally order. BUT on this kind of sentence they CANNOT be released from prison without the parole board saying they can and they must prove they no longer pose a risk to children.

Not sure. Numerous dangerous people are relesed from prison.

And besides, the purpose of the sentencing in this case is not rehabilitation. It's retribution. People are rightly very angry, and it stinks that the retributive element of the sentence is a minimum of only 5 years for the mother in this case.

It's described here:

[[http://www.hmprisonservice.gov.uk/adviceandsupport/prison_life/lifesentencedprisoners/]

"Instead, such [life or indeterminate] prisoners must serve a minimum period of imprisonment to meet the needs of retribution and deterrence. This punitive period is announced by the trial judge in open court and is known commonly as the ?tariff? period. "

What kind of a tariff is 5 years?

Think about it - given the high profile nature of this case, no parole board will be even considering release for a very long time. And on release they will be supervised by the probation service and police for a significant period.

But that's not the point. They should be serving the longest possible minimum sentences to demonstrate the disgust at their behaviour. Letting them out and supervising them is not what is wanted.

fifitot · 22/05/2009 14:51

The judge had his hands tied by the nature of the offence they were found guilty/pleaded guilty to. The max is 14 years.

In her case he had a choice. Give her the max (with a discount for the guilty plea) which would mean she would get 10 years say but with automatic release at the halfway point. No decision about if she is a risk or not - automatic relase.

So he does the right thing. He uses the public protection sentence which is set up for just this kind of case. He has to look at what she would have got if he had to impose a determinate sentence and then halves this (that's the rule..) BUT the minimum tariff is only the minimum. This way they have to be wholly satisfied she does not pose a risk and she could be in prison a very long time.

What would you prefer automatic relase at 5 years or a knock back from parole at 5 years and counting....

You say dangerous people are relesed from prison. yes but under these sentences and life sentences only when deemed as not a risk to the public or children or whatever. That's the whole point - it's about future risk not just what the person has done in the past.

I think the judge did OK. He did what he could with the charge he had in front of them. It's just a shame the original murder charge couldn't have stuck. But if it had gone to trial the CPS would have lost it.

Chris Lewis- got 13 years. Will be automatically released at 6 1/2. There is no way that Baby P's 'mother' will be coming out at that stage.

SomeGuy · 22/05/2009 15:07

Chris Lewis- got 13 years. Will be automatically released at 6 1/2. There is no way that Baby P's 'mother' will be coming out at that stage.

Release for longer sentences is after 2/3 of the tariff has been served, not half.

I don't see how you can say that she won't be let out after 5 years. It used to be that politicians could keep infamous criminals locked up forever. But that's been scrapped now. The Home Secretary has no role. If she's deemed no longer a risk, she'll be let out.

The nature of the original crime is not I think a major concern of the parole board. If they believe she's no longer dangerous, they have to let her out. And that might well be the case, because women in these cases always say they were scared of the man, and with him gone everything's ok.

Hopefully she'll get done over when she's inside.

fifitot · 22/05/2009 15:14

No it's now half. Under the 2003 Criminal Justice Act you will see it is half. It used to be two thirds.

It's better that the Home Sec doesn't make the decision. It is not a political decision. However the parole board IS concerned with the nature of the original crime and any future risk she may pose. I don't know how much you know about the process but it's not an arbitary 'oh you did well by attending an english class and kept out of trouble so we'll let you out' kind of thing.

They will have to take all kinds of factors into account and I would be very very suprised if she gets out at her tariff date. Even more so if her ex partner does.

voiceoftreason · 22/05/2009 15:22

i thought that when sentences run concurrently that means that when one finishes the next begins

voiceoftreason · 22/05/2009 15:25

oh dear, no i just googled it and it's a combined sentence where the longest term is the one served. that's awful, he committed 2 separate crimes against 2 separate victims so why should he automatically have a reduction in his sentence?
i also think the 15 yeard old girl should also have been prosecuted alongside her boyfriend.

fifitot · 22/05/2009 15:32

I don't think he has a combined sentence as you put it. He did get 2 sentences. Read the article on the BBC it may be clearer as to how they have been sentenced.

The concurrent bit is the same for most everyone. You were maybe thinking consecutive?

SomeGuy · 22/05/2009 16:16

oh dear, no i just googled it and it's a combined sentence where the longest term is the one served. that's awful, he committed 2 separate crimes against 2 separate victims so why should he automatically have a reduction in his sentence?

You are correct. Concurrent means at the same time. Most sentencing is done this way; in America they have handed down very long sentences, such as 35 consecutive life sentences.

i also think the 15 yeard old girl should also have been prosecuted alongside her boyfriend.

I don't think they could. The crime of which they were convicted, causing/allowing the death of a child, is only something that people over 18 can be tried for.

SomeGuy · 22/05/2009 16:29

Article here:

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8062099.stm

"Blogs threatened Baby Peter cases "

"Their efforts to "out" the identities of the couple - who still cannot be named for legal reasons - could even have led to some of those responsible for Baby Peter's death receiving far lesser sentences than the ones they did. "

Which is actually bollocks. Because the names appeared on the BBC website when they were originally indicted, and were not removed until long after the conviction, so you could find the names from the BBC website even when they were supposed to be legally anonymous. And it was only after conviction in the Baby P cas that the hate campaign started.

And the mother was acquitted of the rape case, so it wouldn't make the slightest difference to her sentence, because she was already convicted.

One of the main websites naming them, a website devoted to particularly unpleasant criminals, is based in the US anyway.

"Reporting restrictions on the media after the Baby Peter trial prevented any information about his mother and boyfriend facing a second trial being made public.

Despite efforts by the mainstream media to challenge the orders, the press was placed in a position that to even mention the second trial could have resulted in a substantial fine or even imprisonment for contempt of court.
"

"And as a a failsafe measure, it was agreed the defendants should be given false names.

But despite these efforts and within days of the trial starting, the identities of the defendants and the false names they had been given in court had leaked out on websites that specialised in demonising the Baby Peter three.

"

This is because the real names of Baby P's mother and father were published by the Court Service on the first day of their trial!

It was up here www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/xhibit/centralcriminalcourt.htm (not any more, as that's a daily list)

It was only after the judge decided how to proceed that they came up with the fake names.

You can't very well publish things on the internet and then imagine that they can be 'unpublished' by serving in an injunction on the Daily Mail editor!

"Bloggers not only directed readers to where the trial was happening but gave details of what evidence was being heard.

The trial came to an abrupt halt and police were ordered to investigate the source of the information.
"

Again, because the Court Service drew people's attention to it. And presumably the bloggers were not the subject of any injunction, so they were not bound by it. Unless the injunction was published to all and sundry (in which case it would be pointless, as everyone would know), they are ineffective.

ducdo · 25/05/2009 20:27

Can anyone explain why the mother of baby P and her partner are able to remain anonymous whilst the lodger has his photo and name in the papers? Why can't they be named and shamed too?

MoominMymbleandMy · 26/05/2009 00:22

Now that no other trial is pending I would assume it is to prevent identification of the rape victim in the second trial.

natalex123 · 21/03/2015 13:22

I have started researching into looking at what was missed by the professionals involved with the tragic case of baby P, to try and get an understanding of how things could have been done differently. Without blaming or judging any one of the individuals and professionals involved I am questioning why the warning signs and clear signs of abuse were missed or overlooked.

The Mail Online reports:

“Social worker Maria Ward - Appointed as the allocated social worker for Baby P on February 2, 2007, making her first visit to the child 20 days later. Baby P’s mother reassured her that she was “back on track” and insisted that the child should not be on the at-risk register. When Ms Ward spotted bruising on the child’s face the mother told her that he had squabbled with an older child. Four days before Baby P died the caseworker said that she visited the house for a prearranged meeting. She found the boy in his pushchair, his bruises covered up with chocolate. “He had eaten a chocolate biscuit and there was chocolate over his face,” she told the court. “He had chocolate on his hands and face.” She said that she asked the mother to wipe his face before they went out and the mother started cleaning him. Miss Ward noted that the boy had an infected scalp, which was covered in white cream, and an ear infection.

The social worker failed to report and identify clear signs of abuse /neglect.
WHY was this not reported?
• Was the Social worker so overloaded with her volume of caseloads and administration that she overlooked this?
• Had she become so desensitized through the volume and pressure of cases she had in her care that she became on automatic pilot- and did not see the obvious abuse that is so clear to a majority of us.

In the second serious case review the report states Baby p was seen by the consultant paediatrician who saw him in A&E two days before he died and failed to notice his injuries and eight broken ribs; she fell short of expected standards and could face a "fitness to practise" hearing at the General Medical Council.

The Consultant Paediatrician who saw Baby P just two days before his death failed to pick up on fatal injuries – again why? Over worked/ long hours /volume of caseload? Inadequate Child protection training?

These are just two examples of missed opportunities to report incidents, the police also failed to take action and prosecute, along with other professionals. I am concerned this is just one family we have heard about- how many more do not hit the headlines but are just as serious and a cause for concern.

Through the subsequent reports and investigations we know WHAT happened and what mistakes have been made with baby P, as listed in an independent report by Ed Balls, but do we know WHY.
Children's Secretary Ed Balls said the shortcomings included:
• Failure to identify children at immediate risk of harm and to act on evidence. This included a failure to talk to children believed to be at risk
• Agencies acting in isolation from one another without effective co-ordination
• Poor gathering, recording and sharing of information
• Insufficient supervision by senior management
• Insufficient challenge by the Safeguarding Children Board to council members and frontline staff
• Over-dependence on performance data which was not always accurate
• Poor child protection plans
• Failure to implement the recommendations of the Victoria Climbie inquiry, which heavily criticised it five years ago.

My question is…WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE DIFFERENTLY TO AVOID THIS HAPPENING AGAIN, AND HOW?

Finally, below is another extract from the second serious case review which states how Social workers found themselves facing increased administrative tasks – so, was all the admin. work that had to be completed at the expense of having direct contact with the children and families and being “hands on” and vigilant to the incidents such as what baby P experienced?

“There was a reorganisation of Haringey’s Children and Young People’s Service’s Children’s Teams in December 2006. Its overall aim was to move towards specialist teams. Social workers considered that the amount of administrative support to them had decreased over the years, and the introduction of the new case recording system, Framework I, had been responsible for many new Administrative tasks. The caseload of the social worker responsible for leading on the child protection plan for child A had almost doubled from January 2007 to July 2007 and was 50% above the caseload Recommended by Lord Laming in the Report of the Public Inquiry into The death of Victoria Climbie. The social worker described her caseload as made up of various ‘types of case and categories of registration’ and that ‘it was a lot of work’ and that she ‘never had time to do everything.’

Both social workers were regarded as well qualified to be the allocated social workers on a case like that of child A. Their social work knowledge, skills and experience were thought to be matched to the complexity of the case. “

In my research to improve the way services can be run I would like to hear from anyone who has had experience of our public services – have they let you down, and if so how? What happened – what do you think could or should have been done differently, how was it handled? Have you had a positive experience when a situation was handled well – if so what happened?

I would value your thoughts and would like to hear from you- my aim is to provide an efficient, thorough, safe service to protect and safeguard children and prevent the tragic loss of vulnerable children like Victoria Climbie and Baby P from happening again.

If Peter Connelly is to have any legacy at all it's that children are safer”

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