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23 year old has assisted suicide in Switzerland

441 replies

Evenstar · 17/10/2008 17:43

Here news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/hereford/worcs/7676812.stm

This is terribly sad, I wonder how much help and support this family were given in the wake of their son's accident.

OP posts:
interstella71 · 18/10/2008 10:52

My first thoughts were to feel extremely uncomfortable about the Daniel James case. However, I have done some reading and thought this through and I feel that I have to 'sit on the fence'

It is a ethical minefield - you have to balance his right for a decent life against what we refer to as 'quality of life' I agree it was probably too early, he should of given himself more time. But imagine for a minute what it is like to become tetraplegic (so upper limbs and lower limbs affected) in a split second, to loose the ability to walk, to care for oneself, to become completely dependent on others for all your needs, to suffer excruciating spasms in your chest and legs, pain in your hands, life without ever having sex as we know it, constant medical care, having your bowels manually evacuated and I can imagine the dark, dark place you could end up in. Councilling isnt going to change the fact that you are not the same person anymore.

On the other-hand did he feel that his life was so worthless because he looked down on disabled people? Was he encouraged to look at his assumptions?

We tend to associate the words 'brave' and 'courageous' to people who suffer such devastating accidents. Maybe Daniel just didnt want to brave he just wanted to die.

It must of been a living nightmare for his parents, he made it clear that he wanted to die to them for a long time and in a sense they demonstrated utter selflessness by allowing him to have his request.

2shoesdrippingwithblood · 18/10/2008 11:01

sorry I don't agree with it being a selfless act.
the parents would have been grieving. they had lost the son they had. and now they had a "new" son. he would not have been the same person.
imo they would not have been in the right place to make this decision

interstella71 · 18/10/2008 11:10

I dont believe that they made a decision, he made the decision and they supported him because that was what he wanted (rightly or wrongly). As a parent I would want my son, disability and all. To let him have his wish must of been unbearable.

OhYouBadBadKitten · 18/10/2008 11:35

I believe there are two choices we do not have in this life - we do not choose when we are born and we do not choose when we die.

Part of being human is the suffering that people have, its a very core part of our nature. If as a society we say that some lives are not worth living then we our a society that denies what it is to be human.

Our job as a society is to fully support people as they need it, to alleviate pain, to protect dignity and most of all to celebrate life in all its aspects. We are a becoming a society that is loosing its ability to truely care for others.

MadameCastafiore · 18/10/2008 11:48

Bloody hell - who are we to judge how long is right.

He was living like this and he wanted to end his life, he wanted dignity and choice - his decision to make and not ours to judge!

2shoesdrippingwithblood · 18/10/2008 11:51

sadly his decision not only affects him

MadameCastafiore · 18/10/2008 11:53

Well it certainly doesn't affect any of us on here and his parents were with him and supported if not agreed with his decision.

beanieb · 18/10/2008 11:54

It's a shame he felt that his life would be that of a second class citizen. Maybe his mental health issues should have been looked at and he should have had more help.

wannaBe · 18/10/2008 12:03

I think there are so many issues here that go far beyond whether this man had a right to end his life or not.

People commit suicide for all manner of reasons. Be that because of depression/terminal illness/financial problems/other mental illnesses/ breakdown of a relationship and so the list goes on. On the whole suicide can be seen as the ultimate selfish act, because when someone commits suicide it is the people who are left behind that are essentially left to pick up the pieces. And we also find it hard to understand the reasons behind suicide because we cannot ever imagine being in that place where things are so desparate that the only way to make things better is to die. It is a human instinct to want to live, so wanting to die goes against that in ways most of us find very hard to comprehend.

And I think that becoming disabled is something we also find hard to understand if we have no experience.

I find it hard to sympathize with people who lose their sight and who then go on to say how miserable their lives are and how depressed they are etc because really it?s not that bad. But I can speak from experience because I have no sight and I am independent.

But if I lost the use of my arms and legs tomorrow I honestly don?t know how I would feel. Yes I know that people who are in wheelchairs are capable of living fulfilled lives, but if I suddenly went from being independent to having to rely on other people, and having to adjust to doing things in a different way, I cannot hand on heart say how I would cope with that. That doesn?t mean I?d be booking a one-way ticket to Switzerland, but I do think it would take time to adjust from the life I had then to the life I would have now, iyswim? And I think that is something that can be acknowledged without the feeling that suicide needs to be thought of as the only way out. I would like to hope that I could gain the right support to make that transition though, and that those around me would be willing me to live my life rather than supporting me to end it. It must be that much harder to accept the way your life has turned out when, rather than looking for the positives and encouraging you to live, those around you are reinforcing your belief that your life is not worth living by supporting your choice to die.

The other issue for me is the fact that there are people who are prepared to help other people to die, seemingly for whatever reason they feel necessary. That makes me very uncomfortable. I can see the argument for assisted suicide in the event of a terminal illness, where the person is going to die anyway and wants to do it with a bit more dignity. If I developed dementia I think I would want to go down that route. But assisted suicide for other reasons I am not comfortable with. Where does one draw the line? Disability? Depression? What about marriage breakdown, would that be acceptable too? Or assisted suicide rather than plunging your family into bankrupcy? I think ethically it?s very very dodgy, and I question the morals of anyone who is prepared to help someone else to die under any circumstance, especially as motivation must clearly be money (am presuming a visit to this clinic doesn?t come cheap).

I guess in summary my view is that Daniel James was not wrong to want to end his life, after all at that point he felt that it was not worth living, and who are we to question that. But I think that it was wrong of people to support him to do it, because life is about much more than just looking at the here and now, and that if they?d supported him to live his life rather than to end it, he might have got past the point of believing his life was not worth living, to a point where he was living his life.

ADragonIs4LifeNotJustHalloween · 18/10/2008 12:22

It was his choice.
He had already tried to commit suicide.
To him, a life where he could not play rugby and do all the things he enjoyed *was8 second rate. That isn't to say he thought disabled people were second class citizens.
He most likely would have continued to try to kill himself here and eventually succeeded. Surely it is "better" that he got his wish in a controlled environment.

No, I wouldn't be happy about a child of mine wanting to do this, I would be devastated. I imagine he had discussed this at length with his parents and they were fully aware of how he felt - we are not.

needmorecoffee · 18/10/2008 13:40

it does affect other disabled people and people who become disabled. It adds to the assumption that being disabled is so awful its better to be dead. It would give pressure to disabled poeple feeling like a 'burden' so manybe they should top themselves for the sake of others and it gets society out of providing decent help, counselling and support for disabled people.
If my son came home and said he was wanting to kill himself cos he coulnd't play his favourite sport I would be getting help and trying to make him see life is worth living.

Monkeytrousers · 18/10/2008 13:47

It is very sad.

But I believe in euthanasia and a.s. I think, like the right to early abortion on demand, they are one of the moral and ethical cornerstones of caring and humanitatian societies. If human suffering is at the heart of anyones concerns on these isses, then they are the most humane roads to go down.

expatinscotland · 18/10/2008 13:48

I don't think it's fair to foist upon him the role of being a poster child for all disabled, either.

He didn't want to live anymore. He didn't want more 'help' to change this point of view. He wanted to die.

His life, his right.

needmorecoffee · 18/10/2008 13:52

So, if your child was depressed, you'd help him kill himself? Depression is not a terminal illness. It can be fought and won and go on to live a fulfilled life. Gods, if we all topped ourselves at the first depression most of wouldn't get past the angst of 14.

needmorecoffee · 18/10/2008 13:52

and does anyone think someone in the throes of depression is of 'right and sound' mind?

expatinscotland · 18/10/2008 13:57

'It can be fought and won and go on to live a fulfilled life.'

It can be for some. And I do speak as someone who is being treated for it myself. But it still requires a tremendous amount of willpower and will to live. Not everyone will have this. Not everyone wants this. Not everyone wants to live with mental illness, sad as that is. Some mental illnesses can lead to never living what a sufferer might consider a fullfilled life - case in point, the paranoid schizophrenia sufferer who jumped off Golden Gate Bridge in 'The Bridge'.

It's for the person in question to decide.

And as wannabe pointed out, people commit suicide for a number of reasons.

needmorecoffee · 18/10/2008 13:59

they do but they generally aren't helped out with it! I've had severe depression for many many many years and wanted to end things. Lukcily DH wouldn't let me and here I still am.
Oppressor that he is.

needmorecoffee · 18/10/2008 13:59

bastard also stopped me starving myself to death when I had anorexia. He put me in a hospital! I was 21 and adult.

expatinscotland · 18/10/2008 14:01

I'm glad you're happy with your life, NMC, but it's honestly not for others to decide whether or not an adult should continue living for the sake of others, IMO, or to accept help they don't want.

I agree with MT.

needmorecoffee · 18/10/2008 14:04

but I don't think being depressed allows people to think straight myself. Very few suicidal or depressed poeple want help but many are grateful they go it when they get better.

expatinscotland · 18/10/2008 14:06

we don't even know if this man was depressed! maybe he was past that. he didn't want to live anymore and had tried multiple times to finish things.

if i had dementia, i would top myself. because i've seen how one finally dies of it and i don't want that.

anyone who tries to stop me because they feel it's best for me will soon be out my road because it is my life to decide when i want to finish it on my terms, not someone else's because they think it's best for me.

gomez · 18/10/2008 14:10

But was he depressed? He didn't want to live the life that was now available to him - and I would guess it wasn't his inability to play rugby that was pivotal but perhaps some of the more personal aspects of his life as described earlier i.e. sex life, bowel movements etc. - and choose not do. It doesn't follow that he was depressed.

HRHSaintMamazon · 18/10/2008 14:12

i think that a man who was so very physicaly active would find it incredibly difficult to live a life paralysed.

to him a life in a wheelchair was no life at all.

I am not saying that i agree with his decision or that i woudl do the same, but he was unhappy and he couldn't continue.

I think his parents were incredibly brave for putting their son's feelings before their own.

Monkeytrousers · 18/10/2008 14:18

I don't think any one in their own right mind would do that NMC. But it does stand to reason that his parents are going to know him better than anyone. What parenht wouldn;t try to get them to see every alternative. But if you care about someone who has lost the thing they were living for, you have to take notice of their wishes.

Monkeytrousers · 18/10/2008 14:20

Having a psychologiocal condition like depression or anorexia is not comparable to the devastation of losing your physical competemce when your personalty had developed insererably from a physical aptitude.