David Cameron: It is your fault if you are fat and poor.

[FairyMum]

Has anyone commented on the David Cameron-speech on moral neutrality? He is a price-dick, isn't he?

I don't think he's attacking anyone who is in a poor situation through circumstance and no fault of their own - he says this doesn't he? He's talking about the group of people who do have the ability to do something about it and don't. For some reason people on MN think these people don't exist and that everyone is like them, and they are not.

My father worked for years as a headteacher in a shcool on one of the worst estates in this country - drug problems, abuse etc etc were all rife. He got so frustrated as whatever you do, most people at the lowest levels of society do not seem to want to help themselves. There are HUGE amounts of help available for people IF THEY WANT IT.

If you are born poor in a third world country you are probably doomed to being "poor" whatever choices you make. That is NOT the case in this country - we have huge amounts of resources available and I think it is the fault of the individual if they do not take advantage of those.

This reminds me of that recent TV programme where The Duchess of York (or whatever she's called these days...) tried to help a family - think it was in Hull. She found all sorts of ways to help them - community cooking projects, ludicrously cheap gym membership, etc and for ages she was just banging her head against a brick wall. There they were puffing away on endless fags saying they couldn't afford to eat healthily etc etc............it made me so exasperated

I don't think he defined what kind of poor he was addressing, just the great unwashed in general

For example, riven was taking personal offence to his comment when clearly her situation is not one she can do anything about. I doubt that even DC would criticise her.

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X posts, sorry.

idont think he is a ttackig the most vulnerable actually.

heis just saying take responsability.

its all out there - it is - we live in a great country we do - sure we moan about it but education is there for people on benefits - some can get childcare.

thats not the only thing either

too often for the poorest sections of society the "vulnerable" its all too easy to try and make a quick buck

wat is missing

enthusiasm, drive, hope and ambition

and whose fault is that?

the parents. thats who.

how do we address this - becuse trying the shortcuts and addressing cultural change through nurseries and schools isn't working

cultural change needs to start at home and its too late to hope that some of the government shit that interferes with basic education - the shit that parents should be doing - filters through - some might, but things aren't improving.
it needs to start with parents. parents become grandparents and then before you know it we have three generations of cultural change, healthy eating, corect discipline, values, work ethic, hope, ambition

mn is like a make belive world, where the only people on benefits are those who have genuinely fallen on hard times, there is no benefit fraud, where the poor are forever trying to rise up and are constantly beaten down by old etonians.

I dont think DC is attacking anyone. He is offering his opinion and most people would agree with him. The ones who dont are probably the ones who are stuck in a rut and cant find a way out but IME these people are the ones who wont catch the bus or walk to the nearest support center or wont ask for help. Ive seen it first hand. My own sister refused to accept responsibility, she blamed everyone, our mum, the area she lived in, being on benefits, saying no work, the doctors for not supporting her, she blamed everyone BUT she has done it. Its not easy to change your life or way of thinking, its hard and scary to start again and break the mold, it can be done and if DC talking so honestly gives people a kick in the right direction then good for him. Obviously he needs to back up what he is saying with support for these people, he needs to ensure support is widely available and accessable but he cannot physically drag these people to the help and that is when people need to take responsibility for themselves.
I must say the biggest push my sister had was when her DH was denied incapacity benefit after being on it for 10 years. He was then forced to get a job after 11 years of unemployment! Without this push they would never have moved on and started to take responsibility for their own lives.

I agree nancy - and it may well be the case because MN will not be perfectly representative of the real population. Like I said, people on here almost refuse to believe that there are people out there that just do not give a toss about themselves or their kids and wouldn't help themselves even if they could. These people DO exist!

SOmething that is also worth remembering (and I am another fan of Polly Toynbee's Hard Work) for those of you whose mothers brought you up on home-knitted chips etc is that not only have the wages of the low paid gone donw in real terms but there is little or no job security in many low-paid jobs these days as so many have been privatised and reprivatised. So if you want to get off benefits and 'contribute to society' and you get a job cleaning hospital corridors or whatever, your benefits all stop straight away (so you have to manage about four weeks without a penny of income) and then if the job doesn't work out - for instance, the bus routes get changed so you can't get to or from work in time any more, or the company decides to outsource all the jobs of your type to another company who will pay even lower wages, then you will have to wait another 6 weeks or so at least before you can go back on benefits if you can't find another job...
And the cooking from scratch business is less easy when you don't have a freezer or even a fridge, don't have a cooker other than a microwave (because you are living in a bedsit) or can't actually manage to haul sacks of root veg or rice across town and up 5 flights of stairs along with a pushchair and 3 under fives.

spot on Custardo

I don't see what the 'poor' element has to do with this moral neutrality though - other than to attack poor people.

People who are disgustingly rich can be morally neutral - but in other ways - that are for some reason more acceptable.

I would consider spending thousands of pounds on cosmetic surgery for vanity and outrageous designer gear and cars morally neutral, but that is somehow OK and infact something for the poor old 'poor' to aspire to.

Equally, there are many 'rich' people who are obese and unhealthy.

beaten down by old etonians?

thats the poor me attitude that he is talking about exactly

o course no on is going to come on MN and say " i am commitingbenefit fraud" its tantermoun to mn suicide.

i had a very inward looking attitude - society was against me as a poor teenage mum in a council house...well fuck them i am better than the situation i am in - i am and i'll prove it.

the reason i had that attitude was my mum -before she became a fruitcake i was expected to go to university, it was an absolute expectation. that expectation and the disapointment i thought she had ( she didn't) drove me.

but peas, saying that another section of siciety is shit - is a poor argument for excusing another section of society.

all true madamez. Some people do have life hard - no one denies that.

In response to a post by swc below, I don't understand how grammar schools, which educated such a tiny percentage of pupils, could have been a great engine of post war social mobility?

With apologies for continually quoting Polly Toynbee, but was it not the massive expansion in white-collar jobs in the 50s and 60s that really pulled people upwards?

"Of course, circumstances - where you are born, your neighbourhood, your school, and the choices your parents make - have a huge impact. But social problems are often the consequence of the choices that people make"

that is the quote from the article.
at what point does he say people are solely to blame. that each and every poor person is poor by choice?
he doesn't.he acknowledges that circumsstances have a huge impact and can be the cause of many problems.
he also says however that often (not always) that the problems stem from peoples personal choices.

why is this seen as a slight against all the poor? surely it is only asking for those who choose to add to social problems should take responsibility for their choices.

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But only attacking the poor is irresponsible and an abuse of his position of power. Attack all equally !

Exactly Herman. Nothing wrong with what he said imo.