David Cameron: It is your fault if you are fat and poor.

[FairyMum]

Has anyone commented on the David Cameron-speech on moral neutrality? He is a price-dick, isn't he?

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Erm, you refuted my claim, SWC. You've got time for that. Funny game.

DC is loathe to make commitments because he'll renege on all of them.

But he didn't say that "it's your fault if you're poor"...he merely said people need to have more personal responsibility.

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Riven - I believe that is people in your position who should be getting help from the state and more than you are no doubt getting now. This is what the welfare state was set up for - a safety net for those ontruly hard time.

Exactly pruners

Why does responsibility suggest choice?

Surely if you are a parent then the responsibility for you children is not an option?

yes, but there are always choices Pruners. Admittedly, if you are poor your choices are going to be more limited, but there are always choices.

Are you saying that if you are born "poor" you are automatically stuck like that forever, and there is no point trying to achieve anything in life?

everybody has choice to some degree pruners, that guy on tv last night with 20 kids had the choice not to have them, people have the choice not to eat too much food, they can decide not to let their kids roam the streets at all hours of day and night. but why should they when they can blame everything that goes wrong on someone else?

even if you are "poor" you can:

1. choose to eat healthily (ok, you might not be able to afford artisan bread and fancy this and that, but beans on toast, casseroles etc aren't expensive and won't make you fat....)

1. You can choose not to smoke, do drugs etc

1. you can choose to make the most of whatever opportunities you have e.g for an education etc

1. You can choose to bring your children up to respect others and themselves etc

this is all he is getting at IMHO

tories are wank becuase they are tories

however that being said

we do need to take personal responsability - there are things in our lives that we can control.

i went to uni with 3 kids under 5
left school with 1 gcse
went to night school
packed poster in a factory for 2pence a tube ( those disney ones with the crayons..think on!)

i am not more resiliant than anyone else
i didn't get a good degree
i didn't go to a good university

but i did it becuase i wanted it
i moved 300 miles away to a better life for my children where the career choice wasn't stealing cars or dealing drugs.

the only person going to change your shity life is you.
i firmly believe that

I can't quite see how having a privileged upbringing precludes someone from becoming a good and effective MP or PM. There is so much inverse snobbery going on in this thread, it is laughable.

And why are people who are poor through no fault of their own getting all uppity? He did say that other factors impact but there is no getting away from the fact that many people could improve their standard of living if they wanted to. What is so bad about suggesting that? It's true. Not for everyone, but it's true.

born poor does not mean no hope. I have pushed myself and gone to college despite being kicked out of home and having to support myself, i got a career, i have worked 4 jobs to pay my rent at 17 and i even went back to college when i found myself a single parent on benefits, i studied and worked and made my life better for myself and my DCs. Im now married with a mortgage and priviliged to be a SAHM for a while. Money is tight BUT its our choice right now and its not long term so we can manage.

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"There is a danger of becoming quite literally a de-moralised society, where nobody will tell the truth anymore about what is good and bad, right and wrong. That is why children are growing up without boundaries, thinking they can do as they please, and why no adult will intervene to stop them - including, often, their parents. If we are going to get any where near solving some of these problems, that has to stop."

I get that part - that there are CERTAIN things we can take responsibility for - and chose. But it is such a simple statement that it does not take into account ANYTHING else that could act as a confounder.

e.g. You are from a v.poor background - unsupportive parents, poverty etc. You WANT to do well at school ( not sure of many children who don't?) and work hard etc.....but you don't have a clean uniform, you get bullied, your parents are pissed all the time and you don't have chance to get your homework done. Your parents don't feed you properly (too much or too little) - you are malnutritioned and therefore at an automatic disadvantage, you don't get enough sleep and are tired all the time - the list could go on. HOw can a child be expected to take responsibility for these outside factors??

He seems like he is just trying to inflame class divides by saying such idiotic things.

Exactly Custardo, and WELL DONE. (really mean that)

"lol Herman!

I mean certain city workers such as investment bankers, hedge fund managers, etc - some of them can get literally millions as a bonus."

and while i'd agree with you that it seems like silly money to you and me (as do actors/prem footballers salaries) in my opinion they deserve this kind of money.
businesses by and large aren't stupid so if they are giving a broker a 1 mill bonus you can be damned sure the deal he has arranged for them is making the business at least 20 times that.so they are being rewarded for improving the business by using their skill set (be it academic,salesman,personality,contacts whatever).
anyway sorry for getting off the point.

i'm still saying fair pay to cameron here and if i was english this would probably make me vote for him.

defining your own success - thats another thing.

not talking about world domination - but having an achievable dream and going for it.

if your success is having enough money to be a sahm - then youhav achieved it - mine was getting a degree - i achieved it

for some it mght be walking to the shops

getting off AD's

but ido believe that only you can change things and there are so manypeople who wait for it to happen to them

i see it on mumsnet - and can't comment cos when i do all holy shit lets loose.

Lots of poor people do well for themselves, and make a very nice life for themselves.
However, some are stuck in a cycle of poverty, abuse and cxomplacency.
This is not a choice, it is how their lives have turned out.
People in this situation can't see themselvces doing any better, don't have the self concidence to break free and inevitably end up mirroring their own fractious upbringing.
This doesn't mean everyone born into these circumstances stays in them, just the ones who are more vulnerable.
And they are the ones that DC is attacking.

cheers G&T nice of you to say xx

Where are all the uppity poor people?