Why didn't the Allies bomb Auschwitz

[Gwenick]

Just read this link

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4175045.stm

It's all very well asking now - "should we have bombed it" - but then what would we be saying if we HAD - it would probably be something along the lines - of "OMG look how many innocent Jews we killed trying to 'save' them".

What about those Jews who survived, and have gone to on to get married and have children, or those that survived and were reunited with family members?? How would the families feel now if we'd bombed them?? I don't think it would have helped bombing them - the Nazi's would only have found somewhere/somehow else to persecute the Jews.

Opinions please (nice controversial one for a Sunday afternoon ;-)

Mud, I think you need to check out some basic facts before you go labelling someone.

To question does not mean denial. Nor does it mean anti-semetism.

We are in a place now where some revision of the Holocaust/WW2 death toll is taking place. This is a common practice Historians do it all the time, and sometimes "facts" do change.

I am sorry if for some this does not sit right, but all the same, isn't it better to have the truth remebered, even if that means less actually died than was thought. Or more?

Even as it stands, the official totals were 11/12 million, of which 6 million were Jews. Thta is not the "6.7 million people died in the Death Camps .. of which approximately 6 million were Jewish" which you claimed.

What do we label YOU for denying the deaths of all the non-Jews?

Auschwitz itself revised the death toll on its memorial. Yet the original official figure for Jewish deaths was not revised down as well. This is a fact. Not anti-semitic comment.

Why cannot people question these things without fear of getting labelled? Any other historic event is scrutinized to establish as accuratly as possible the true facts, so why not this?

Well I'm in shock - I really am. I am NOT denying that most of the victims of the DEATH CAMPS were Jewish.

BUT almost as many NON Jewish people died during the HOLOCAUST (which started before WWW2) as Jews. 6 Million Jews, versus 5 million 'others'.

Thankyou to all of those that see that I'm NONE of the thing I've been accused of.

I don't really feel I need to 'justify' myself to some people - but I will anyhow.

I'm not antisematic - if I was I wouldn't have attended my little cousins naming cermony - in their local synagouge (my Cousin - a baptist, married a Jew - and they're bringing her up mainly Jewish).

I'm not racist - well if I am someone had better tell my husband and my children LOL

I'm NOT a holocaust denier - I KNOW That 6 million Jews died, but I also kNOW that 5 million 'others' died too.

Why is it wrong to remember them as well as the Jews?? The Romany gypsies were practically wiped out too thanks to the Nazi regime!

"s. It smacks of the same type of bleat that the influence of the jews is too strong, their power too great and their wealth too large? "

I'm sorry but I really DID have to chuckle at that comment - as it happen my cousin who married the Jew lives in a very posh house in surbiton (which most will know is not a cheap area) and they're by far the 'richest' part of our family (but then also the most down to earth too). And what's more her DH (the Jew) is the one who pays for the mortgage these days

No Gwenick, 9 out of ten victims of the death camps were Jewish. Yes, other people died, including in Russia in purges. But it does not alter the fact that the concentration camps were overwhelmingly industrial killing factories designed to eliminate the Jewish people - forever. Many Poles were murdered when Hitler invaded Poland, but of those more than half were Jewish (which when you consider that half the population of Poland was NOT Jewish gives an idea of the priorities of the Nazi regime. I have not read a single bit of coverage of the recent anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz that has failed to mention the murder of gay people, Gypsies, political dissidents etc, but after an intial 'test gassing' of political prisoners, Auschwitz (which is, after all what was commemorated) was 90% a place to kill Jews. You can hardly accuse Jews of claiming some unfair 'advantage' by pointing this out.
And all the death camps were predominantly for killing Jews - Sibobor, Dachau, Belsen - the lot. There is no death camp where the death toll of non-Jews was higher than that of Jews.
I think the comments by Skibunny illustrate very clearly to me why we SHOULD remember the hatred of Jews and what it led to.

Gwenick, what on earth does your cousins house have to do with this debate?

And back to the original question, apparently the location of the camp at Auschwitz was unknown until 1944, when the first escapees revealed that the 'place in Poland' was actually Auschwitz. It had not been flown over by the Allies so it really was unknown. Once the location was known the important thing was to prevent the mass deportation of Hungarian Jews (which was, as usual, enthusiastically supported by the governing authorities ) - telegrams were sent asking for the bombing, not of the camp itself, but of the railway lines taking people to it. This wasn't considered a war aim particularly as the air attacks were at a critical stage (though apparently Churchill was in favour) but a British female (who I think was working with refugees) arranged for an unciphered telegram to be sent to London to ask for the Hungarian authorities to be held personally responsible for any Jewish murders etc, and for Hungary to be bombed if the deportations continued. This put the frighteners on the Hungarians, and then certain government buildings were bombed - partly by accident, which convinced the authorities that the revenge had started, and the deportations ceased.

Alhoa -

YES -

The DEATH CAMP deaths were mainly Jews and account for 6 millions Jews

YES

the HOLOCAUSE - deaths (holocause lasting from 1933 to the liberation of Auswitz) totalled 11 million 6 million Jews, 5 million others.

My cousins house............lisalisa made a comment about them being 'too rich, too powerful' etc etc - which I did 'copy and paste' in my thread. I was being accused of antisematic and racist - so I was making a JOKE of the fact that the richest people in my immidiate family happen to be my cousin and her Jewish husband!

Why is that a funny joke? Lisalisa pointed out that people justified the murder of millions of Jews on the grounds that they were "too rich" and still justify anti-semitism on the same grounds. By talking about your cousin's rich Jewish husband you seem to implying that he too is 'too rich'. Otherwise why mention it?
Also, you said in earlier posts that Jewish victims were a minority in other death camps. I am glad you now agree that isn't true.

alhoa - If you can't see what 'line' I was taking with that then that's your problem not mine.

And re your comment about death camps - I mearly said that while in Auswitz it was nearly all jews that died, in other death camps there were 'higher' (not highest) numbers of others that died. I didn't say they outnumbered the Jews - just that there were 'more' of them than in Auswitz.

I'm not really too sure I can articulate why, but I do find this thread very distasteful

Its not a competition as to what group was most hard done to (although were it to be it would be very disingenious to suggest it wasn't the jews)!

Most of the commentary I have seen may focus on the jews but has covered losses from other groups. This balance to me seems about right. As a proportion of the total numbers in the population the number of jews murdered vastly exceeded any other group.

Actually, 20million Russians died as well. Not all in the camps, but still as a direct result of the Nazis actions.

But I think the point has been missed here. It is not about how many Jews die, it is about how many others did, but do not get a mention. Or get added as an afterthought. All some are saying, is all deaths deserver the same commemeration.

If some want to twist that to mean anti-semetic, then the problem is in their own mind.

When discussing this subject with my son, over the years and of course recently due to the remembrance of the Holocaust, I have always outlined that Hitler was determined to rid Germany and then the world of Jewish people, then he also decided that homosexuals, disabled people and gypsies were also to be removed.
I tell him this because my schooltime best friend is Jewish and her mothers mother survived Auschwitz but all the rest of her large family were killed.
When my friends mother came to school to give a lecture about the holocaust, it was made more than clear that the other groups were just as much victims as the Jewish and she even apologised for speaking only as a Jewish woman and not for any other persecuted groups
Infact she was apologising for exactly what Gwen is trying to say. Jews hogging the holocaust limelight, I mean honestly it made me feel awful hearing that even as a selfish teenager.
I do not think Gwen is being anti semetic as in my experience the Jewish people I have met and museum exhibitions I have seen outline clearly who the victims were, the jews suffered the most deaths as one group and the destruction of their people as a race is just immense and almost unreal. If only...
I think then perhaps the blame for the biased reports (if they exist all the ones I have seen of recent days express equally for each group affected) must lie within the media.

No point to make just want to share this. I walked with a group of women in silence from Birkenhau to Auschwitz, it was very eerie and chilling and to this day has left a deep mark on me. I will never forget it.

I posted that 9 out of ten victims of the death camps were Jewish and you said I was wrong. Which I wasn't.
And if you don't get why it is a bit 'off' to laugh about rich Jews directly after someone points out that the perceived wealth of the Jews was used as an excuse to murder them in their millions, well, I give up.

Aloha, I think you have got it wrong.

The comment about "rich Jews" was not said about the 1930's, but now. There are theories that Jews control the World via their wealth and positions of power.

LisaLisa said:

"It smacks of the same type of bleat that the influence of the jews is too strong, their power too great and their wealth too large"

This is what Gwen was commenting on. Nothing to do with the Holocaust and it reasons.

Finding this thread all very distasteful

The comment from Mud seems to have lit the touch paper on all this. Didn't think Gwenick was sounding anti semetic, but tbh Gwenick I just dont understand the `joke' about your cousin's house at all, even with ocean's explanation

It called irony. Gwen was just relating that the one person in her immediate family who is Jewish, does indeed happen to be very wealthy!!

I think this thread makes uncomfortable reading, but just wanted to add my comment anyway. I don't think you can have paid much attention at school or read the papers properly this week if you haven't noticed that other groups also targeted by the nazi's has been mentioned. I watched the Holocaust Memorial programme on tv last night and they had both a disabled person and some gypsy musicians on.
Also, I am afraid I don't find irony very proper to this kind of topic. It's just too serious. Some of these posters looks like they, like The idiot Prince Harry, didn't pay much attention in their history lessons......

I can't believe this is still going on - Gwen has not been anti-semitic or rascist and I think those that have accused her of that should take a long hard look at themselves and ask themselves why they are reading things into this which haven't been said. Then I suggest we all get on and join more productive threads and leave this one alone!! I certainly won't be returning to it! The one thing we should all be concerned about is accuracy, truth and humanity and some of those posting on here have lost all sense of these qualities.

Uncomfortable reading? Why? I find spiteful comments about peoples education, or lack of, far more worrying that anything said re:Holocaust.

It this kind of insiduous censorship that breeds the conditions that spawned Hitler/Stalin. Intolerance of others views is a very dangerous route. Yes, by all means disagree, but to start labelling, and calling ignorant is a whole different matter.

I have read things here from people about the "Facts" which are wholly inaccurate. But to even dare suggest that seems to leave you wide open to attack and accusation of anti-semetism etc.

I remember the weeks of nightmares that followed my parents' visit to Auschwitz when I was in my teens, and night after night waking to find my mother crying and praying by our beds. I remember my grandmother telling me how she dared not look too long at my brother, because he reminded her so much of her twin brother who perished in Bergen-Belsen. I remember my grandfather, when he finally unbent and told us a little of his history, telling us of weekly visits looking for his family in the lists of survivors and fatalitities published by the humanitarian organisations - for over ten years after the war ad never finding a single survivor.

I also remember a gay friend who took to wearing a little pink triangle pin. He showed it to me with pride when he began wearing it - asking me if I know what it meant. Yes, I did - but I was shocked that he had only just discovered it.

The information is there. The history is taught. Perhaps we Jews pay closer attention to the Holocaust than others. Perhaps until you realise that it involves you - even though you may not immediately identify with it - it doesn't touch you and all you see is 'hype'.

That others died does not diminish their agony. Precise proprotions are irrelevant.

Well I'm sorry but after being called antisemetic and racist - both of which are utterly wrong - I don't see why a little irony, or sarcastic joke is so wrong.

I'm thankful that some people on here CAN see what I was getting at - whereas others just want to throw it in my face.

While we're at the 'accusing' people - perhaps some of you are Holocaust deniers in another sense of the word - wanting to deny that 5 million Non Jews died,

SkiBunnyFlum.

This was you, yesterday on your Buddhist Monk thread.

Did posting liven up your afternoon for you?

This seems to me to be offensive beyond belief on a thread about the holocaust.

I do not wish to censor your right to assert your opinions, but I wish to make use of my right to challenge you. (with reference to Ocean's comments)

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