Judge rules on twins existence

[4intheCorner]

BBC News - Family court judge rules on twins' existence
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cql8nz4nyp7o

I haven't seem a thread on this yet, so apologies if I've missed one.

A very peculiar case. I wonder what has driven the mother to such a drastic concealment.

I was thinking that too. It seems pointless them representing themselves when they've only been able to present their sides so badly that the ending is as unreliable as it was early doors.

Well she had legal representation, the judge deems that she stopped working with her legal representation because he didn’t want her to. The judge notes an incident where she was being threatened so came into court in person and when the judge gave her some options, she asked the applicant what he wants her to do. Yes that’s right, the man on the other side of the legal dispute.

He likely doesn’t feel he needs legal representation. Remember that these are religious people. They’re not super concerned about UK law as they are concerned about religious law and what their community thinks of them. He knows he just needs to say whatever to get himself exonerated by his community and ruin his ex wife. He’s obviously not completely clean himself, he’s open to underhanded tactics like forging documents. He wouldn’t get away with that with legal advice as it’s likely his solicitors would have not advised that bogus evidence is presented to the court.

What a weird case! And what I find odd is that so many of the calls were recorded. I might have missed it but I couldn’t see the judgement addressing who made the recordings and why.

This was my take from it all. The poor woman has no support and is vulnerable, the people she seeks help from are more concerned about ‘how things look’ rather than safety.

even the psychotherapist is involved with the religious institution and got far to involved - they event state this. Also having no notes - not sure that’s right either. I wonder if she should be put forward to her professional board for consideration because their behaviour alone is unprofessional and deeply worrying. And how can the recording of a a therapy session be used in court - totally unethical.

the highlight, if you could call it that, was the busybody comment of the unreliable friend.

so many questions, but fundamentally he is an answer and she is incredibly vulnerable. Who knows if the children exist or not. Also doesn’t show the Portland in any great light.

I got the impression he’d recorded them trying to gather evidence of her talking about a child

The police will only investigate criminal offences. They are not there to help determine disputes about whether a child has ever existed. The only potential crime we appear to have here is failing to register the birth. That carries a fine of up to £200. The police aren't going to spend much time investigating that.

The psychotherapist is the wife's psychotherapist, not the husband's.

As the judge says in the judgement, it is not their job to investigate. They simply have to rule on the evidence presented.

Not sure where you are getting that from. The evidence from the therapist regarding the toddler is that she "did not remember much about the child, other than the child had his or her hair in a bun. He or she played with a toy whilst the Respondent spoke to her." The therapist does not appear to have stated the sex of the toddler.

My take on this is that the whole case is bizarre. Both parties have clearly lied. It is difficult to know what evidence to trust. Some of her attempts to explain away things she did don't seem credible, for example her claim that the series of messages to him telling him she was pregnant, had given birth, etc. was orchestrated and controlled by him.

The judge says that, until the most recent evidence, the balance of probabilities is that there was no child. However, we now have the therapist who claims the respondent visited her accompanied by a toddler of about the right age who referred to the respondent as mummy. The respondent denies this visit happened, but there is no obvious reason why the therapist would make this up. It is not of itself conclusive, but it helps the applicant's case.

Then we have the series of phone calls and emails with the hospital. From the judgement, it seems she admits the phone calls were her but denies the emails. However, given the content of these communications, it appears certain that they all came from the same person. It is clear from the emails that she is desperate to ensure that her medical records have been destroyed.

Having read the judgement, I agree with the judge that, on the balance of probabilities (i.e. the standard used in civil courts), there is at least one child. However, it is by no means certain. It would clearly be helpful if the midwife mentioned in the judgement came forwards to give evidence.

Wow. I just read the court notes. What a complicated, miserable case. There are no ‘winners’ here are there?

@MeAgainAndAgain

I'm going on what @CormorantStrikesBack said...

"He saw the kid occasionally. Turned out she’d borrowed a random kid off a friend for visits and she’d never had one. He was devastated."

The news article indicates that both he and his family had embraced the child - he'd changed jobs and was getting a new house for himself and his "child", and the "grandmother" was quoted speaking about how much she'd loved the child and her devastation. The woman had used the child of a friend who was a single parent and struggling with her new baby so didn't mind the perp "helping" with her oldest, and apparently the child had also thought he was genuinely "daddy".

I've read through the judgement, and it does sound like a very odd situation- the calls and emails to the Portland Hospital especially do seem like there was at least a pregnancy. I do wonder if the respondent is trying to cover up a termination.

However, if there is even a small chance that a child was born, I am very concerned for their welfare, and I hope someone can find them.

I agree it would be very useful if the midwife could be found and summoned to court.

What a messy situation full of riddles. I have read through the judgement and what a read it was. Credit to the judge for making it or trying to make it clear for the outside world to read and make sense of.

I will give my two pence worth working in private healthcare

I am first drawn to the applicant he simply wants to see his children i have a simple question "where was he during the pregnancy"? He doesn't appear to be a very nice man and the judge has highlighted this

Swiftly coming on to the respondents! What an absolute roller coaster of a car crash. It's quite obvious she is trying to cover something up with the calls to the Portland hospital. The judge accepts she's a vulnerable person but I don't read she's illiterate quite the opposite it would seem. My thoughts on the respondent are that she has given birth or there was only one child and she's told the ex there's twins to distract him while she covers her tracks with the child.

It appears she's had some sort of prenatal care at the Portland and done so strategically seeing an independent consultant and private midwife. I work in private care I have seen it often where exceptions are made and rules are bent for some patients especially if they have a lot of wealth and it seems as the judge mentioned the respondent is from a wealthy back ground and if she's been treated privately she certainly is not short of money. Adding to this Portland HCA have kind of thrown her under the bus and distanced themself but it's very suspicious how they didn't keep notes earlier. The fact the respondent admits she requested her records not be shared with the GP this again is normal practice we give the patient an option if they want there gp or nhs to know.

It's likely that she was admitted under a false name with false ID if she gave birth in a private hospital if she booked in claiming to be a foreign national the NHS Spine would not be informed as she would be claiming she's not British. It's more likely that she gave birth in a private facility abroad but again there's a chance she has given birth in the UK privately and it's been covered up.

Her wealth speaks volume data can easily be deleted or not registered all she would have needed was to befriend management and it appears from her witnesses she has professionals around although not helpful it appears she's covered this up with the right people supporting her.

There was a mention that she visited the A&E department with a possible pulmonary embolism. It's likely this would have started in her leg due to pregnancy a witness also mentioned she had swollen calf's and feet! There's no mention of a scan so it's likely one wasn't carried out. It's strange There's no mention that she went back for any follow-up treatment so it's likely she went for treatment privately. The GP said she had regular weekly appointments but these were all done via the phone so the GP wouldn't have known if she was pregnant. The respondent was likely making a record for the likely event her ex was going to take her to court I think this was a planned cover up. Also note the respondent is used to having private healthcare her cancer treatment was treated privately. Her private healthcare is not linked to her NHS and I know we give patience the option in a private facility if they want their records to be shared with the GP. Following cancer treatment the respondent would have surgical scarring which the husband/applicant would have seen hence why he is baffled why her nhs records don't show this. The simple answer is she was likely treated private and didn't disclose it to her GP.

There is also another possibility that she has 2 registrations with 2 different GPs and 2 separate NHS numbers and this is possible you can simply walk in to A&E and say you have no Gp give a false name and a new nhs number is created. I know this as I have worked for the nhs previously for 26 years.

The births register if the respondent has changed her name all she would need is a change of name deed to present to the registrar by law she can't change her birth certificate so she would present herself to the registrar with her change of name deed. Her new name would be written on the birth certificate of the child this would not link to her birth certificate and the registrar would not keep a copy of her change of name deed as it's irrelevant to then,It would have been useful to have called the local registrar to give evidence rather than the national office.

The judge mentioned she was a vulnerable person and she witnessed the domestic abuse this is a big sign why the mother would protect her child in the respondents case it appears she's got wealth behind her so she can get away with this but imagine having to live like this it's unfair on this lady and her child/children I hope she's being supported.

It would be very interesting to see how this transpires I am keen to find out how she has so meticulously managed to give birth and hide her child. I hope we get an update on this

She sounds like a bone-fide nut job. She wouldn’t know the truth if it whacked her.🤷‍♀️

@littleflowerpot interesting post especially about the possibility of changing her name and registering a birth.

one th8ng though if she was diagnosed with a PE I think she must have had a scan. It’s the only definitive test for a PE as far as I know and Dd has had PEs. Yes there’s a blood test but that isn’t diagnostic as you get false positives for th8ngs like muscle injury and also pregnancy . Even when DD’s d dimer blood res5 was high she had to have a CT scan.

For me the lack of photos with both children and the lack of faces on the couple that do exist makes me believe that the mother was attempting to wind up the husband . He is clearly an abusive individual and she is a manipulative liar.

You have a very good point I wonder why the judge didn't mention there was a scan from the A&E visit they would have put it on her medical records so the GP would have had site of it, because that scan would have supported the respondents case?

One of the things that stood out to me was a lack of evidence of cancer treatment.

That would indicate that she lied and lied to the judge. Or she had in fact managed to find a way to have things removed from her medical records.

I can’t see how she would get things removed from her medical records. Which would leave that she has form for telling huge lies.

Reading the judgment, this is a hugely difficult case. But after reading it I think there probably is a child. Which is being concealed by her brothers.I suspect this woman has been abused by her family and her ex husband. And just going along with what she thinks is easier at the time. Meaning there’s inconsistencies. I would bet she did send, at least some of those photos, especially if she managed to fake cancer.

So many things don’t make sense, like her leaving him because he wanted her to abort the baby/babies. I get that women may say they are pregnant to convince themselves to leave. But then leaving because he wanted an abortion of a non existent baby, doesn’t make sense. Especially since she was upset, that he wanted her to have an abortion. That doesn’t fit with someone making up a pregnancy to leave.

I think there’s clearly some cultural control around of ‘how things look’.

But also it’s wild that her own witnesses (according to them and her) talked at length about the child/ren when they didn’t exist. Who does that?

I think the ex husband probably is doing this to exert some control, but that also a child is being concealed. And that is terrifying for the child. Because no one is going to take the child for medical care if they need it.

So weird. Surely if one of the babies is alleged to have been 'in an incubator with heart problems, that would be fairly easy to prove or disprove.

I doubt she would have lied about the cancer treatment as someone mentioned above she likely has surgical scarring which her husband would have seen and she told courts she was treated privately some private care don’t update us NHS Drs

@Hectorscalling wasn’t it established somewhere that her cancer treatment was private? That wouldn’t show on medical records via NHS would it? So no, that hasn’t established she’s been telling “huge lies”.

To be honest, I feel like I’ve read a different judgement than you have! I didn’t read anywhere that she had faked cancer, where is that? I think the claimant has shown himself to be dishonest, manipulative and abusive. Both sides are unusual but you seem to be fixed on her. The judge said he had faked evidence for example. You can’t take what either side has said as fact.

Plus, all the witnesses in this case were strange and seem to switch allegiances.

personally don’t think the twins exist. There is zero corroboration of them outside of “the community”. I think with the lengths he’s gone to, I wouldn’t have put it past him to follow her. There is no footage of these children. No neighbours who have heard babies crying? No cctv footage of her with the twins, anywhere? No grocery shopping receipts showing baby items? No contact from her family to her giving updates on the babies if they are with her family? No plane tickets?The police were involved as per the judgement I read, but seemingly haven’t found evidence of the children.

I had to read the judgement to make sense of this and it’s still left allot of questions arises why did the judge not order a medical? That would prove she has or hasn’t given birth? If she refused a medical that’s suspicious. I feel she’s gone abroad and her brother is concealing the children she’s most probably not living here anymore and raising her kids in Dubai or somewhere she’s lied in court and the judge accepts she has this would mean she’s not a convincing liar and is only lying to protect her child fair play to her it also appears the judge is being kind to her excusing her lies so she must have seen something in the respondent can they not check her travel history it will show where she goes most

excellent point kids are expensive she would constantly be shopping for baby food and toddlers clothing all which would show up on bank statements im a nhs dr I know records can be redacted so I have doubts over her medical records but just curious if anyone knows law would the courts know how many bank accounts she has?

Yes if delivered in nhs facility but it’s claimed in the judgement she gave birth in a private hospital and they could have bent the rules on what’s been shared on the NHS Spine data base.

@Docsadvice The police could gain access to her bank details and the number of accounts she has. I think the problem here is that this is being investigated as a civil matter eg by a family court, as opposed to a criminal investigation eg by the police. This is because the claimant brought it to the family court, but perhaps he should have reported a crime and let the police establish if the children exist.

I think the grey area is that the police have already been involved and seemingly don’t think there is a crime to investigate. The police might have more power to obtain bank statements than the judge has. I don’t think the court necessarily can ask for her bank details as part of this case. But if this is now passed to the police to investigate, perhaps they can.