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Judge rules on twins existence

142 replies

4intheCorner · 01/08/2024 14:19

BBC News - Family court judge rules on twins' existence
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cql8nz4nyp7o

I haven't seem a thread on this yet, so apologies if I've missed one.

A very peculiar case. I wonder what has driven the mother to such a drastic concealment.

Royal Courts of Justice in London

Family court judge rules on if children exist

The husband in a separated couple told the court he believed his wife had given birth, while she said it was not true.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cql8nz4nyp7o

OP posts:
ThursdayTomorrow · 02/08/2024 16:45

Slight change of topic sorry but wasn’t there a TV programme or film about exactly this situation? I can’t remember its name and it’s bugging me.

CormorantStrikesBack · 02/08/2024 16:46

Yerroblemom1923 · 02/08/2024 16:42

@CormorantStrikesBack I don't understand your point, sorry. Do you mean women pretend to be pregnant and then miscarry to stop a bloke from leaving?

Yes - pretend to be pregnant and pretend to have a miscarriage. For sympathy and attention.

TerrazzoChips · 02/08/2024 16:46

Equally weird the toddler who called her mummy was a little girl when the alleged twins were both boys.

CormorantStrikesBack · 02/08/2024 16:48

ThursdayTomorrow · 02/08/2024 16:45

Slight change of topic sorry but wasn’t there a TV programme or film about exactly this situation? I can’t remember its name and it’s bugging me.

Not sure. There was a weird real life case years ago where a woman pretended to have had a child. Got maintence off her ex for years. He saw the kid occasionally. Turned out she’d borrowed a random kid off a friend for visits and she’d never had one. He was devastated.

Lilysgoneshopping · 02/08/2024 16:54

CormorantStrikesBack · 02/08/2024 16:46

Yes - pretend to be pregnant and pretend to have a miscarriage. For sympathy and attention.

I knew a girl who did this on more than one occasion. I think it was an attention seeking thing and not wanting the boyfriend to end the relationship

Exactlab · 02/08/2024 16:57

There is zero evidence that children existed.

Not one photo existed. But then again not one person subpoenaed that could dispute the psychotherapists version of events.

The judge could have ordered the brother of the forner wife give evidence. But the former husband never served him with a subpoena. It’s something very very basic that could have put an end to this and it doesn’t seem complicated at all.

Rainbowsponge · 02/08/2024 17:08

Yerroblemom1923 · 02/08/2024 16:42

@CormorantStrikesBack I don't understand your point, sorry. Do you mean women pretend to be pregnant and then miscarry to stop a bloke from leaving?

Yeah I know somebody who did this, she said she had an abortion though but got caught lying because she said her sister went with her & somebody who knew the sister asked her (she had no clue about any of it obviously)

DoIWantTo · 02/08/2024 17:27

Anyone going to that lengths to protect their children must be doing so for good reason.

Nobodywouldknow · 02/08/2024 17:28

DoIWantTo · 02/08/2024 17:27

Anyone going to that lengths to protect their children must be doing so for good reason.

Or she could have mental health issues. That seems more likely here.

DoIWantTo · 02/08/2024 17:29

@Nobodywouldknow or an exceptionally abusive ex. That is equally and statistically as possible.

Procrastinates · 02/08/2024 17:34

DoIWantTo · 02/08/2024 17:29

@Nobodywouldknow or an exceptionally abusive ex. That is equally and statistically as possible.

Surely if that was the case she wouldn't have said anything at all? However given she had told her former partner she was pregnant, sent him scans of the babies, and talked about giving birth. Then I'd also think mental health issues the more likely scenario.

This whole case seems absolutely bonkers though, there are no winners in this situation.

Edward0thana · 02/08/2024 17:52

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CormorantStrikesBack · 02/08/2024 18:08

I guess even if she’d given birth abroad it’s unlikely she’d get them back in the country with no passports. Private plane possibly but I think most pilots would balk at smuggling newborns into the country. So unless she’s left them with someone abroad it’s unlikely. But possible her ex is so controlling she felt she had no choice. He certainly doesn’t sound a nice person in the ruling document.

her gp also says something about her having an appt most weeks,,,,which is also very unusual.

stravagante · 02/08/2024 18:10

Goodness. I just read all 71 pages of the judgment. There's multiple references to her being vulnerable, which I assume to be referring to her mental health and/or her likely level of intelligence. What a car crash of a case.

Arriettyborrower · 02/08/2024 18:15

I am most struck by the governance, or lack of, displayed by The Portland/HCA group. Safeguarding strategies appear to be lacking, the Portland engaged with the respondent on multiple occasions regarding her data and how that would be shared suggesting it was entirely conceivable that she was seen on their premises by some unknown consultant using their own equipment presumably paying to use their space and name. They did not dismiss this and investigate this but cannot confirm it - thus suggesting this practice happens and therefore there is not robust safeguarding and governance.

I am very sure patients paying for private healthcare can opt out from having their medical history shared with their GP and accessible on NHS databases, and there will be reasons for this, however there should still be robust governance to mitigate for circumstances such as these - particularly when it involves childbirth and children who all healthcare professionals have a separate professional responsibility (from the mother/parents) to safeguard.

it appears that the judge in this case cannot rule on this as she cannot disprove a pregnancy or that a child exists - this should never have happened when there has been some contact with healthcare professionals, it obviously could happen in a case where a woman freebirths and has no contact at all at any point of a pregnancy.

Her ruling seems to largely rely on the changed statement of witness MTT based on her demeanour and professional status, however it doesn’t appear that either the respondent or applicant were seeing MTT in her professional capacity, moreso that she was involved from social-cultural standing. The changed statement is very odd in and of itself.

It is all bonkers, odd and highly suspect. It does seem clear that the applicant was abusive, and the respondent estranged from family, I wonder how she is being safeguarded?

DreadPirateRobots · 02/08/2024 18:28

That's a deeply sad case. Not least because the man duped into thinking he was the "father" truly loved the child and rearranged his life around the DC, and the DC also thought he was "dad".

socialdilemmawhattodo · 02/08/2024 18:47

It was all around the COVID lockdown times, so physical meetings with a GP weren't happening and going to hospital was avoided at all cost. Feb 2021 for the suggested birthdate implies approx May-June 2020 for conception. I can well imagine that chaotic time could very well lead to inaccurate records.

But just reading the judgment now - only on Page 11 and it is already very odd.

ElephantilonZed · 02/08/2024 18:51

Procrastinates · 02/08/2024 17:34

Surely if that was the case she wouldn't have said anything at all? However given she had told her former partner she was pregnant, sent him scans of the babies, and talked about giving birth. Then I'd also think mental health issues the more likely scenario.

This whole case seems absolutely bonkers though, there are no winners in this situation.

The therapist says it's common for women in abusive relationships to claim they're pregnant in order to gain the confidence to leave.

HowardTJMoon · 02/08/2024 18:53

FionnulaTheCooler · 02/08/2024 16:07

Would there not be a blood test for that? I'm sure I've read somewhere that males can't receive blood from women who've been through pregnancy, can't remember the exact reason.

I'm not sure the family court can order that kind of blood test.

RoseAndRose · 02/08/2024 18:54

Well the judgement seems to have been that the Respondent was pregnant and that she had sought a TOP consultation at the Portland.

The rest is a mess.

The Applicant was a litigant-in-person throughout, Respondent had a KC initially, but not by later stages (wonder why?), and the judge noted that the case would have been better presented had their been lawyerly input as it was not the role of the court to investigate, rather that it was to assess the merits of the information put before it.

I suspect the Applicant had thought the court would have more of an investigatory role - he must have been thoroughly confused at the enormous pile of contradictions and concerned, if the baby/babies do exist, what sort of life they have (and given the comments about the mother's MH, whether she has made good decisions about them, and even if they are safe).

I note that later in the judgement it describes the allegations about child sex abuse that the Respondent made about the Applicant's father as false.

So even allowing for his intemperate and expletive-laden phone calls and the heaven-knows-what about the desecration of the Respondent's mother's grave (the judge believed her distress, but did not find that the call that led to the sudden reappearance in court was anything to do with the Applicant); it does seem to me that they are as bad as each other. And the judge, despite hearing directly from many people, could not sort out this mess, other than that the Respondent had been pregnant and had sought (but not attended) an appointment for a TOP.

So whether miscarriage intervened, a TOP was carried out elsewhere, if a baby or babies were born and are living; that simply isn't known. The Respondent wasn't credible enough. And even if the Applicant is a shit of the highest order, he deserves reliable information on the basic fact of the existence of the DC, rather than months/years of being strung along.

HowardTJMoon · 02/08/2024 18:57

DreadPirateRobots · 02/08/2024 18:28

That's a deeply sad case. Not least because the man duped into thinking he was the "father" truly loved the child and rearranged his life around the DC, and the DC also thought he was "dad".

Something similar happened to a work colleague. He got together with a woman. A few years down the line she'd got pregnant and had a little girl and told him he was the dad. Six or seven years later they'd split up, she shacked up with the real father, then told my colleague what basically boiled down to "she's not yours, I was having an affair all along, bye loser lol".

It utterly destroyed him.

HowardTJMoon · 02/08/2024 18:58

ElephantilonZed · 02/08/2024 18:51

The therapist says it's common for women in abusive relationships to claim they're pregnant in order to gain the confidence to leave.

But it also happens that some women claim to be pregnant to try to stop their partner from leaving.

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