Shamima Begum lost her appeal....

[Noangelbuthavingfun]

Just heard on BBC news a reporter said one reason is that she has shown zero remorse and spoke exactly like other extremists - still. Whilst it us unfortunate fir her...
I think it's the right decision given the circumstances....what are your thoughts?

Imagine the outrage if Bangladesh stripped the citizenship of one of their criminals and said they are the U.K’s problem now.

it wouldn't even be that, i think. She wasn't registered there (birth) and neither she nor her parents had ever either claimed Bangladeshi citizenship or applied for it. So this 2nd citizenship never existed.

I don't think we are comparing apples with oranges there at all. The Rotherham girls were caught in a web of abuse and coercive control which involved the perps stalking them outside their schools, at their homes, and in a few cases insinuating thsemselves into their birth and foster families. The girls were plied with alcohol and drugs. On multiple occasions they were forcibly seized and/or forbidden from leaving their attackers' homes. Or told their family members would be killed.

Begum on the other hand had to work extremely hard to secretly remove herself from her family and into a foreign country, then into an extremist sect in a geography that was not recognised by any UN country. It took almost a year of planning, saving, by her own admission, she was driving a lot of the online contact she was having. It was very voluntary, she had multiple chances to change her mind or ask for help, no one seized her, no one threatened her or her family.

I don't like whataboutery at the best of times as it's so intellectually immature, but this comparison in particular is so insulting to what the Rotherham girls were forced to endure.

She was groomed as a child. Her lack of emotion is, I imagine, trauma. I think it’s disgusting to strip someone of their citizenship so we don’t have to deal with them.

Agree, 100%

I believe her and her Dutch husband should be tried in Syria and then deported when they are done with them
Why do we have to do it here? She committed the crimes in Syria so let punish her.
Richard Reid was not deported Back to be tried here and jailed. Most criminals are tried in the countries they have committed crimes in.
She chose to depose herself, leave all behind and commit terrorist offences so let the land she has plagued judge her.
I also don't believe the narrative being spun that she is not very bright, autistic etc. it's convenient.

Oh come on. She decided to plan to leave and become a Jihadi bride without any input from anyone else? I daresay she did put some work in. That's what exploitation is.

The Rotherham girls were deceitful and secretive too, in cahoots with their abusers. We know of course that they were abused, and groomed but they in many ways chose to continue that life. Thats what grooming is.

There are many and complex reasons they were so vulnerable to being exploited, but they did make "choices". That's not to say they bear any blame at all but even in their own minds, they were choosing to spend time with those men for what they could offer them.

It's not whataboutery. It's entirely relevant when the definition of grooming seems to be so different for different individuals according to an agenda.

She has citizenship as she has Bangladeshi relatives
Irs the same with Ireland. Lots of parents or grandparents left Ireland, came to uk, had children. Like me. I have automatic right to get an Irish passport as i am already recognised as Irish / a citizen even though I’ve never lived there don’t have to apply I just am. The application just gives me the paperwork.

Bangladesh is the same.
She is, as her birthright, Bangladeshi. The UK pulled her British citizenship first, therefore not leaving her stateless

It's not relevant. They are completely different and cannot be compared.

A slightly more reasonable comparison might be with the Yazidi girls who were forcibly kidnapped by ISIS and then beaten, burned with cigarettes, raped daily and in some cases sold on the dark web. Brave young women like Nadia Murad.

These Yazidi women were often kept captive and prepared and ceremonialy washed for their daily rape by voluntary ISIS brides like Begum. Several witnesses have given evidence of Begum's enthusiasm and brutality in enforcing subjection on these genuinely trafficked girls. This was part of the evidence considered by the home secretary in coming to his initial decision.

Let's not forget that even after she had left ISIS and was trying to get back to the UK, Begum is on record as saying that the bombing of the Ariana Grande concert in Manchester was justified.

The comparison of Begum the ISIS enforcer with the Rotherham girls or the Yazidi girls is simply not a sound comparison to make.

There are some individuals, and always have been, throughout history, who simply go beyond the pale of what it means to be humane and thus forfeit their right to live in a civilised society. Begum is one of those people. Let her go.

I was meaning because she is living in Syria now and has done for almost 8 years. I’m not sure if it is 10 years living there and/ or married or if both criteria need to be fulfilled. Wiki suggests 5 years subject to meeting certain criteria or married if female but there is scant information.

Personally I think she should come back and be tried for her crimes

She illegally entered the country - married a man of different nationality and was heavily associated with a group who lost a civil war and engaged in terrorism and atrocities and had been held in basically an interment camp for last 8 years or so.

I really don't thinks she would quality for Syrian citizenship and I haven't seen any reputable news source saying that she might.

Several witnesses have given evidence of Begum's enthusiasm and brutality in enforcing subjection on these genuinely trafficked girls. This was part of the evidence considered by the home secretary in coming to his initial decision.

Have you a source for this please? I had a quick Google but couldn't find one.

Yes absolutely, the fantastic book Guest House for young Widows by Azadeh Moaveni. Meticulously researched, speaking to multiple witnesses in the US and UK Govts and also adjacent to extremist groups, she epxlores why young women join ISIS and other religiously extreme groups. A really good chunk of the book is about Begum and her two accomplices and how long and hard they worked toget themselves out to Syria to follow their extremist convictions and religious sensibilities.

It's a brilliant book and many of the findings really surprised me and went contrary to the usual media narrative about the allure of extremism.

This is how I feel too, @LavenderHillMob. It isn’t a clear right or wrong situation - and it must have been a very difficult decision to make.

Thank you. Will take a look.

It's really worth it. The media narrative around Begum and other ISIS brides is so sensationalised and 'othering' and people tend to view them through the lens of their own existing political prejudices. By contrast Moaveni spent time amongst the women of ISIS and also the government operatives tasked with tracking them, plus as a Mulsim herself she is well placed to explore the perverted version of Islam that these women have chosen to adopt and in many cases still cling to even after the collapse of the Islamic State.

For the people who are saying its not fair, she was a child, try her in this country etc. She committed the crimes in another country - the evidence would be extremely time consuming to collect. She has shown no remorse, she has a face and attitude that does her no favours. I see a dangerous terrorist with a attitude and a sneer towards this country. Where were her parents in all of this?

I am not sure I believe that she lost 3 children. When she was interviwed she had something in the bundle but I find her deceitful and sly. She also seems to have bounced back from having children and doesnt look like someone who has had any.

Would I want her living next door to me?? The security cost would be huge.

Would anyone want her anywhere near them? She will never have a job, never be able to walk down the street without watching her back. The cost of protecting her would be ridicilous. She can stay where she is.

It hasnt worked out for her and now she wants to come back to the UK. She has made her choices and needs to accept the consequences of her actions.

I knew she would be denied. Feel sorry for her, cant lie. It would probably be different if she were of a lighter hue. I hope the decision is reconsidered.

It sounds really interesting. I must admit, I really, really struggle to understand how any woman or girl could look at Islamic State and think, "Yep! That's the life for me!" It does feel very alien. It's on Audible so I'll get it for some light dog-walk listening...

@potniatheron - sounds fascinating, I will definitely see if I can find it, thanks

I didn't know about him and I guess he's the exception that proves the rule.

I think it was legally suspect for him to lose his citizenship as well.

There are many and complex reasons they were so vulnerable to being exploited, but they did make "choices". That's not to say they bear any blame at all but even in their own minds, they were choosing to spend time with those men for what they could offer them

I couldn't disagree more.

Believe it or not, the book did help me to understand why people (of both genders) might find such an extremist life .... attractive? It's like a more extreme version of middle class students in 2017 all suddenly declaring themselves 'literal communists'. But Begum and others like her crossed the line into actual criminality and enthusiastic propping up of a murderous death cult though. But the book does try to promote understanding without ever shying away from some of the atrocities committed.

I am OK with adults with dual citizenship having their UK citizenship removed

I don't think I am. Citizenship should not depend on whether you have one from somewhere else. If you are British and German, the German bit is nothing to do with the British bit and vice versa.

However, there is a difference between being left stateless and being left with your other nationality. That assumes of course that they don't decide to remove your citizenship too.