Archie Battersbee - Thread 4

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Archie Battersbee - Thread 3 http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/inthee_news/4601962-archie-battersbee-thread-3

I know his Mother is grieving but I am so angry and upset for Archie.

No dignity or privacy.

Poor, Poor boy x

This thread is a disgrace. It shows the worst of human nature.

Mumsnet is supposed to be supportive to parents. I doubt any of you have spent a day in Hollie's position.

I will be reporting this thread and can't believe it's been allowed to stand with such personally vitriolic comments about a grieving mother.

www.theguardian.com/society/2022/aug/01/archie-battersbee-another-tragedy-highlights-need-for-independent-mediation-in-cases-of-children

Poor Mum taken advantage of people with a different agenda and poor little boy. Mum has been used and will be thrown aside. Bless them both.

@Ellatella But it is pointless. She's acknowledged as much in court documents, but then as soon as she's in front of a camera she's claiming he's disabled and going to be executed. She also flip flops between saying they just want more time and saying he's going to recover.

To be honest, they're probably afraid of a lawsuit/being accused of murder at this point.

Odfod. Many many parents have been in this situation and done the right thing in switching off their child's life support when no more could be done so absolutely get the hell out of here with that utter bollocks. I've known a couple of people who have been in this situation and acted with sheer dignity towards medical staff and their own dying child.

These cases are so important because as the public we need to protect these rights we have in this country that children are human beings with their own rights separate from their parents, and that's includes dignity to die.

Also, there seems to be some misunderstanding about the hospital’s rights to make decisions, here. There is no ‘aggression’ in the timeline. The court has ruled that the hospital MUST stop life support, because it’s no longer in the best interests of the patient. That is a legal ruling that they MUST follow, and which they have been trying to follow since it was made, but have had to keep delaying due to the endless further legal challenges.

Setting the timeline for withdrawing support a day or more ahead is a kindness the hospital staff have given the family, but in reality they could, and arguably from a legal standpoint, should, have enacted the legal ruling as soon as it was made.

PICU staff are usually excellent at end of life care and palliation. It is part of their job.

I agree with you Parasitic it may be perceived as harsh by some but it's a harsh truth. And to be fair to the trust they have never said it's about freeing up resources, only what's in Archie's best interests.

And what about having respect for all those parents who have accepted the hospitals expertise and taken the brave move to allow their child's ventilation to be removed, with dignity, without a media circus and multiple pointless appeals all with the same inevitable outcome .

I did think about this, and I thought that would be the counter-argument.

But I do think there's a very big difference in fighting for your child to be kept alive (in her view) and accepting that it's over and that his machine is being switched off.

I think the last three months she's been consumed with fighting for the courts to believe her when she says he is "progressing". I don't think at any point in that process there would have been any acceptance that it's the end, or that Archie is going to die.

That's why I think it's a bit brutal with how the hospital has handled it - her appeal at the Supreme Court thrown out yesterday, machines planned to be switched off this morning. Much as I think Hollie is not doing the right thing, I am struggling to justify the approach from the hospital too.

I know I keep coming back to it but Charlie Gard's parents went to court multiple times, and by the final ruling, they were given three days with Charlie before everything was switched off. Medical care should be holistic, and that includes protecting the mental health of the surviving family - it's why cuddle cots were introduced for babies who die. No one can pretend this isn't a deeply, deeply traumatic case and I just don't think it's being handled well. I wonder whether some people who think the hospital are right to just switch it all off right away are perhaps being influenced by the fact that they disagree with Hollie's actions and the fact that they don't perhaps like her very much either? Don't get me wrong, I'm not a cheerleader for Hollie at all - but I do think she's not being treated with as much compassion as she could be.

Yes I don't think they are reluctant, they just know they need to be seen to be following all the rules and trying to cause the least distress to Archie and his family and unfortunately that includes allowing the family to rule out ALL legal avenues. The backlash if they didn't would be tremendous and even dangerous for the staff.

But just as an example - Supreme Court ruling yesterday so they plan to switch machines off at 11am today. For me, that feels a bit brutal. The comment from the hospital about the next round of appeal papers having to be in at 9am or else they'd switch the machines off at 11am, regardless. Jesus......

Except this ain't a case of "11am tomorrow end of".

They were given a time for 2pm Monday.

They were told life support could be legally withdrawn weeks ago.

They are extending Archie's life support by constantly appealing decision as they can.

The hospital are purely saying that they will follow what they have legally been told by a deadline if they don't meet another deadline. Ie. We have a legal mandate and we won't extend that by weeks and months against Archie's best interests.

Because what happens then when Archie dies naturally in a week, month or whatever. And the parents haven't put in another appeal?

It renders the whole process designed to have impartial decisions on best interests useless.

What next? Convicted criminals who are appealing their sentence or their conviction are kept out of prison until they put in an appeal ?

No one is suggesting our court process isn't infallible. But it exists for the best chance of democracy we can have.

I don’t think so. Documentation will be perfect, there is a medical consensus and multiple opinions have been sought and the medical decisions have withstood the court system.

They’ll expect it, probably. Although Hollie won’t have this one funded for her

PICU staff are usually excellent at end of life care and palliation. It is part of their job.

Oh absolutely. I'm just saying that when you're in such a traumatic situation, sometimes no matter how kind someone is, it doesn't feel like enough. Being told that your child is dying/dead, no matter how sympathetic that is put across to you, you might still take it badly and think they aren't being kind enough. If that makes sense. I'm absolutely not blaming the hospital here.

The only sensible option is for the Courts to allow the hospital to do the offical tests to show that the poor boy is brain dead or not and allow them to proceed accordingly.
It's only natural that his DM doesn't want to let him go but the NHS has limited resouces and someone else's child could die for want of specialist care. For everyone their child is the most important but the hospital has to be even handed and make judgements based on facts, not emotion. I hope Archie will be allowed to pass quietly and rest in peace

I think the last three months she's been consumed with fighting for the courts to believe her when she says he is "progressing". I don't think at any point in that process there would have been any acceptance that it's the end, or that Archie is going to die

Except there has been. It has been spoken in court from their lawyer that the parents know he won't get better and it's a matter of when and how he passes now. Except soon as out of court none of that is said.

There are reportedly 8 guards outside Archie’s door though. If there’s been disruptive behaviour and the expectation it may escalate, that’s extremely unfair on other patients and families who are also on ICU.

But is it the PICU staff who are driving the timelines though? For such a high profile case like this, you'd expect the hospital management to be calling the shots together with the consultants.

I know I sound like I'm intent on dragging the hospital, and I'm honestly not. I imagine this is awful for the staff looking after Archie every day and this situation dragging on for three months must take a huge toll.

My questions were more about why the timelines here seem much shorter and quicker than seen in other cases like Charlie Gard - his family were given three days, even though the court had made the same ruling.

Which leads me to the conclusion that they're now probably barely managing Archie's condition and the "natural" process of death that Hollie is so fixated on really isn't that far away now.

I have to admit this thought crossed my mind too.
There is only so much they can do and they have been doing it for a very long time now, which doesn't mean he will have been in constant, stable state. There will have been deterioration. I hope for everyone there is a peaceful end.

...and then because of that, the family get angry at the hospital and make accusations which frustrates the hospital and then we end up in a cycle, is what I meant.

Some people just won't accept it either
Totally different situation but I deal with people every day who ring me and it will be
People will literally argue that black is white even if I prove it isn't

MsBallen

You're not protecting any principle on an incredibly catty and gossipy MN thread. It makes no difference how others have behaved. I have been in this position as a family and we didn't challenge it. We didn't behave 'better' and we certainly wouldn't deserve a thread like this if we had. She's doing the best for her child that she understands and the legal system is operating as it should. It's that simple. No need for you putting in your poisonous penny's worth on a thread she'll likely see if she searches her son's name. You're achieving nothing but toxicity and you're certainly not helping any parent. This thread is out of order in many of the comments, chillingly judgemental and should not stand. If you want to have a discussion about the legal implications you can start a new thread not linked to a mother who is in hell today.

And yet no mention that accusing the very people who have kept her son "alive" for 4 months being called executioners is just as abhorrent.

Someone unthread very sympathetically and well put that we need to decide at what point we allow grieving parents the freedom to say what they like and make such accusations to the media and therefore a world wide population.

Everybody here is sympathetic to Ms Dances plight.

That doesn't mean we have to agree with her decisions even if we understand why she's taking them.

I know another parent who fought against withdrawing life support. She won. Kid is now late teens and has been severely disabled since birth when she was given hours to live. Parent won on the basis this was a multiple time she's ended up on life support and each time she'd made a full recovery and lived her life within the limitations she'd had since birth.

On that case I agreed with the parent about needed it more time. Because there was a proven possibility of recovery.

Archie cannot survive without medication doing the job of his brain. It's a full time balancing act and he has no quality of life. Unfortunate Ms Dance cannot hear what's being said and is being manipulated by an agenda group due to her vulnerability.

Is she? Is she really 'doing the best for her child'

You don't get to police who posts what.

I actually think this is the only strong argument for doing it so quickly. As I said initially, I am only following this loosely so I don't know how much disruption there's been or how badly the "army" of loons has been. I did hear about the 8 security guards too so it makes you wonder.

But if there are any concerns that this might be an issue, then it's understandable to do the deed ASAP because Archie and his family aren't the only ones who are entitled to care.

This perspective is one that makes sense to me.