Archie Battersbee - Thread 4

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Archie Battersbee - Thread 3 http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/inthee_news/4601962-archie-battersbee-thread-3

The whole thing is so devastating & just sad. Hollie is clearly not wanting to let go - this is devastating to any mother.
I think it's really sad that the end of life decision is in the hands of the court, it's just the wrong place for it to be.

I sincerely hope that the parents are getting good counselling to help them let go & take control of the decision making. I think it's easy to place blame but what I see is a mother having a massive mental break . And I don't think its right to judge her actions because she's not completely in control of them at this stage. She's being led by grief.

I hope she can reverse her thought patterns & finds peace within this incredibly tragic set of events.

But what will happen if archies body gives up, his organs all fail and none of the family are there to witness as they are all in court, will it then turn into some conspiracy theory that the hospital have done away with him, or do they have a family member there all the time? Sorry not been following thread that closely so don’t know if this has been explained before

Someone asked above (possibly thread 3) where Mr Battersbee was in this and his opinion.

We don't really know except that Ms Dance says he wants the same.

We do know he was taken I'll last week with what could be related to the stress he's under but what his opinions are and why that stress occurred we don't know.

We also know when she had the letter outlining the withdrawal of treatment she said on an interview she did t know his feeling, didn't know if he had received the letter even as she hadn't spoken to him.

Evidence from her actions leads me to conclude she's driving this but there's no evidence to say whether he agrees with her or even if she's telling him stuff like if he doesn't agree he doesn't care.

I hope whatever his thoughts and feelings he's getting support behind the scenes.

I can't believe people are actually accusing her of being attention seeking. So what if she's gone to the press over things in the past - lots and lots of parents of children with SEND end up going to the papers, as do parents when something goes wrong. I have no idea what she's been in for except some wrong medication.
I really think people have some NHS = angels thing going on. What has happened is really clear - communication and trust has broken down. Other parents 'being more dignified' is because they trusted the medical teams.
I had complete faith in the NHS until I didn't. I ended up going to our MP, CQC, solicitors about that team. I don't have any problems with rest of the NHS - I expect it's the same for Hollie.

It's been mentioned on Sky she has also been told that Doctors in Japan and Turkey can help him recover..

There is the option to watch the thread and bookmark where you're up to.

I do think two things are possible at the same time-

his mother has a 'colourful' past, parenting style that's not the same as mine, an belief that you do what you have to do, fight to the death for what you want, and refuse to bow down to stuffy law makers...

And loves her son and hates the loss of control she's now experiencing and is fighting every step of the way.

I don't think her motives have to be selfish/grifting. She can be very different from me without being base, if you see what I mean.

I thinks this family have enough to deal with, without people suggesting that they are responsible for other childrens potential death. This is a crass perspective you are right.
Fact is that the NHS has been struggling & failing anyway, its a big fat mess, this is well known fact. One child who is the subject of legal processes isn't going to make a difference to this position.

As I've said already this mother I think is having a mental break, & I think this is understandable under the circumstances. Resources should be with counselling to ensure that she & the father can take control of the loss & how, when things happen. The division being made & placing blame on the mother is sickening & shows that the situation was possibly never managed well in the first place.

Totally agree with this

People aren't accusing her.

There is evidence of this fact that has come out because she's in the media again.

Please find the article about when a GP told my mum to use the wrong thing on my mouth in 1991 which burnt the skin.

Hint : you won't. It was a mistake that was dealt with directly and didn't need to tell the whole fucking country about it. Neither do most people who experience this day in and day out.

Also find all the media stuff about what I have been through with my own disabled child and education system.

Hint: again you won't. I felt it highly undignified to post about it all on SM. I wouldn't claim to be fighting for my child's dignity whilst being the one to play fast and loose with it. But there's many anonymous threads on here about it as I sought comfort and advice.

No one is denying that Ms Dance is extremely emotional and stressed and doing what she absolutely feels is right. But what she thinks and feels doesn't make it right.

She's made horrific accusations against those who have kept her son alive against all odds.

You cannot deny there are certain types of personality that respond in this way and it does no one any good to ignore that.

I've had A LOT of involvement with families within the SEND community and I've had to very gently guide them towards not turning everything into a fight. It tends to come from the fact they've fought so hard they cannot let go of that.

With some people you just can't win. They will constantly move the goalposts to put you in the wrong.

If she’s there when organ failure happens, its
gods Will and she’s won.

If it happens whilst she isn’t there, she probably will say it was a conspiracy and that the hospital murdered her child

I would just like to say that, if anyone is following the Kiwi Farms thread, Any Fucker who is active on there is not me

It isn't just the ventilator here. The hospital is having to carry out treatment 24 hours a day just to maintain the very delicate balance that stops his entire system crashing. I doubt that any hospice in any country could do that.

That's the whole point, very little of the previous appearances bar one have been about the kids. They have all been about media attention for herself. This is what I mean about how having a better understanding of the backstory might help people understand why what they are seeing now probably isn't primarily about the child either. I'm sorry if you consider that a slight on parents of SEN children but it not. It's forming a more informed opinion of a wider picture that clearly is being influenced by the character traits of an adult who is being exploited.

It's been mentioned on Sky she has also been told that Doctors in Japan and Turkey can help him recover.. so that’ll be a new round of court battles then.

If the ECHR say no then they’ll go back to court to request for Archie to be moved to Japan or Turkey or wherever.

And then appeal, and then appeal to the Supreme Court and so the rollercoaster begins again.

I actually think that the courts just need to concede defeat on this one because they can’t possibly win here.

That’s funny. I assumed it was.

As I understand it, he probably would not survive being moved, would he?

He must have agreed with her, otherwise his name wouldn't be on the court action or he would have been separately represented in court. Also I believe he gave oral evidence supporting the continuation of treatment.

It isn't as simple as 'Tony could breathe, Archie couldn't'. Many patients are completely ventilator dependent and after 10-14 days a tracheostomy would be performed. The issue with Archie is that he is ventilator dependent because the bit of his brain that would trigger breathing is dead. Also, the bit of his brain that would allow conscious awareness is profoundly damaged or dead. That means that there is nothing that can come of this that will bring recovery of any sort.

Hollie isn't quite understanding the medical situation. She said in an interview last night 'He's only on 5% vasopressin, so where's the other 95% coming from if he's brain dead?' 5% doesn't mean '5% of what you need'. 5% means '5% of the fluid bag is vasopressin'. But she won't be hearing information accurately and she will be hearing what her Army, who also don't understand, are advising her.

Tony Bland's case was passive euthanasia - he was still alive, breathing, some brain stem activity but needed feeding. I believe his parents and the doctors were in agreement about removing treatment, but because he was still alive and euthanasia is not legal in this country it had to go via the courts to plead exceptional circumstances, which were granted.
Archie's case is not about euthanasia at all. It is not euthanasia to remove artificial breathing support from someone who is already dead. Medically, death is about brainstem function (because there is no coming back from that ceasing and the rest of the body will shut down) not about whether the heart is still beating. That is a common misconception that believes heart beating with ventilation for oxygen = still alive.
It is therefore legal and appropriate for doctors to remove Archie's support without needing a court order because he has, medically, already died. The only reason this has gone to court is because the parents have challenged it. In fact, all mainstream Christian doctrine agrees that there should not be invasive treatment past this point. CLC do not represent mainstream Christian views at all.

@AnyFucker

I read the first post on that thread, and even that looked as batshit as some of the conspiracy stuff on the other side.

I have my own views, but how anyone could have spent time reading through that entire thread is beyond me.

If doctors in Turkey and Japan had found a way to heal a necrotising and liquefying brain, I think we would have heard about it.

I actually think that the courts just need to concede defeat on this one because they can’t possibly win here.
No, because that would set a precedent that clinically dead patients could be kept on a ventilator indefinitely.
With the possible result that other patients are deprived of treatment due to lack of resources.
The CLC should hang their heads in shame, but they don’t appear to have any. They are failing Archie, his parents, and the staff supporting Charlie.

I agree, but the reality is that Archie’s life support is never going to be withdrawn. The CLC have seen to that.

While it might set a precedent the fact is that the court decisions aren’t worth anything anyway given they’re never going to be carried out. So what was the point?

I actually think that the courts just need to concede defeat on this one because they can’t possibly win here.

Nope because we'd have all sorts of family members insisting on keeping their loved ones corpses alive if that happens.