Archie Battersbee - Thread 4

[BreadInCaptivity]

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Archie Battersbee - Thread 3 http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/inthee_news/4601962-archie-battersbee-thread-3

I'm finding these posts really difficult to read especially the negative comments about the Christian group supporting the mother. Why shouldn't they? The church has a following of millions around the world. A religion that is based on the belief on a virgin birth and the son of God on earth and other miracles so important to millions in societes around the world ofcourse they should support her.

This isn’t the church though. This is a fundamental organisation who have a track record of using cases to further their various agendas, most of which they have thankfully lost. But let’s just have a quick look at their track record:

Emily Mapfuwa, a Christian who launched a private prosecution against the Baltic Centre for Contemporary Art in Gateshead for exhibiting a statue by Terence Koh depicting Jesus with an erection. In a BBC Essex radio interview, Michael Phillips (a solicitor working for CLC who is also a member of The Lawyers Christian Fellowship) admitted that Mapfuwa had never actually visited the exhibition. In fact she lives over 250 miles (400 km) away in Brentwood, Essex. The case was thrown out.

Graham Cogman, a police constable from Norfolk, was sacked for sending emails to colleagues in which he quoted Bible passages condemning homosexuality and forwarded details of a group that offered to "cure" homosexuals. Supported by the CLC, Cogman launched an appeal at the Employment Tribunal, claiming harassment on the grounds of his religious beliefs. He lost his case and has now been dismissed.

Duke Amachree, a homelessness officer who was sacked by Wandsworth Council for subjecting a client to a "30-minute barrage" of evangelism when he was simply supposed to be offering her housing advice. The client complained to the Council, leading to an investigation. The Council complained that Amachree revealed "sensitive personal information" about the client to the media, namely an interview with The Daily Mail after the CLC had become involved. The CLC supported Amachree in an unsuccessful legal claim for unfair dismissal, religious discrimination and breach of contract.Duke Amachree, a homelessness officer who was sacked by Wandsworth Council for subjecting a client to a "30-minute barrage" of evangelism when he was simply supposed to be offering her housing advice. The client complained to the Council, leading to an investigation. The Council complained that Amachree revealed "sensitive personal information" about the client to the media, namely an interview with The Daily Mail after the CLC had become involved. The CLC supported Amachree in an unsuccessful legal claim for unfair dismissal, religious discrimination and breach of contract.

And in virtually every case they fight they go as far as the European court of human rights.

We’re not talking about the mother being supported by a church, taking comfort from a paster who comes to pray with her at the hospital, going to prayer sessions. There is 0 mention of that. So let’s not pretend that she’s being supported by a church, or even by a Christian organisation. Every single actual Christian I know has said that they believe these organisations should be outcast as Christian in the same way that e.g. fundamentalist Muslim organisations are, because they simply do not represent the actual Christian faith.

All the mother seems to want is to give it some more time on the LSM. He is not in pain despite hysterical comments about necrosis. If he is brain dead which they have said is not certain anyway then what is the problem with respecting mothers wish to leave it for another few months or weeks ?

The comments are factual - not hysterical.

Read the court judgements. Read the state this young child's body is in and the medical interventions needed 24/7 to keep him going. Read about how they have air con blowing out really cold in his room to preserve him.

Then really think about whether it's ethical to keep this young boy in this state because he can't feel the pain because that's his mums wishes.

So where does that end? Does every child that dying her ventilated 24/7 by a team of people forever to spare the parents the absolute heart wrenching pain of grief?

No one owns anyone. If the person with legal or parental responsibility cannot make a decision with drs and nurses about their best interests we have a independent judicial process that will.

Holly has said in the BBC piece that there is a hospice which is prepared to take him.

If this is the case, I imagine that any legal challenge to move him to a hospice won’t be able to be a challenge to just move him to a hospice the court papers would need to stipulate which hospice, so if there isn’t one which is prepared to accept him the legal challenge won’t be able to be brought.

@loislovesstewie Completely agree.

And the sad fact that it is happening up and down the country to many people and families even as I type this and being done with dignity, privacy, grace and gratitude to the HCP involved.

I hate the thought that even one of those people may be second guessing their decision or thinking that in some way they are "lesser" or failing their loved ones because of the language that has been used in Archie's tragic case.

I’m a committed Christian, very involved in my local church and the church more widely (nationally). I also have some experience of hospital and hospice chaplaincy. The ‘Christian’ legal centre certainly don’t speak for me or for any Christian I know. Christians and other people of faith are, in my fairly extensive experience, involved in ITU and palliative care at all levels, as doctors, nurses, chaplains, volunteers, cleaners….

Often people who choose to work with those who are on the edge of death do so because they feel a religious calling to be with the dying and offer what comfort and care they can. There are easier areas of medicine to choose to qualify in, after all. Nobody who I’ve met working in this area would agree with the CLC’s actions or think ‘life’ should be preserved at all costs.

I would put quite a substantial bet that several of the army of healthcare professionals and others caring for Archie are committed Christians or followers of other faiths, and that’s quite leaving aside the chaplaincy team.

@itsgettingweird

Surely they would be trying to keep him warm not cold at his hypothalamus can't properly regulate his temperature anymore?
If they are keeping him cold at this point to stop him decaying then why is he on life support? He's dead?
I don't know why they haven't overruled the parents at this point if he truly is dead and just pulled the plug, if he's alive then he would try to breathe you would think after being taken off the ventilator.

This is what they have been trying to do . You can't to walk in and press the off switch 🙄

I've no idea.

But Ms dance keeps saying despite them keeping his room so cold with air con he's holding his own body temperature.

We don't know if he is or not.

I read something interesting Ms dance said that may explain some of her resentment towards the hospital.

She has said he went there for an operation but the hospital have failed him. So because they obviously couldn't operate in any meaningful way she seems to think they decided not to rather than it being futile.

Poor woman is desperately clinging on to blaming everyone for this tragedy. But it's just that. A tragedy.

When my parent was in a hospice and dying, the rooms were cold to prevent infection. It was something to do with if the room was colder than the corridor? I don't remember the reason but I remember I asked at the time and they had a reason for it.

I think this case should actually spark a bigger debate once Archie has gone. As a first world humanitarian country we need to protect human rights and that especially includes those of children.

I am satisfied that the courts are acting in Archie's best interests. However i am rather annoyed that his parents are being given chance after chance to challenge their best interests. Where is Archies's advocate in all this? For every interview the parents give, he should be offered the opportunity to put forward the the child's POV. Maybe. Not sure how that would work or if it would just look like tit-for-tat.

Having read the (not hysterical, to the pp who said that) descriptions of the state of his body, is it possible that he's not feeling anything at all? so the hospital, in not immediately starting withdrawal preparations aren't actually harming him (as such) because they know he's dead, so they are in effect just providing a last bit of comfort to the parents?

I watched the most recent video and whatever i may feel about how far this has gone, it is heartbreaking. She honestly believes that he's alive and has some sort of chance. Even though she knows that he's dead, she seems to be displaying some doublethink there, and it is not surprising. I wonder if the courts using weak language and not being firmer about telling her to stop this and let him go, is feeding into her belief that there is a faint glimmer of hope?

I'm finding these posts really difficult to read especially the negative comments about the Christian group supporting the mother. Why shouldn't they? The church has a following of millions around the world. A religion that is based on the belief on a virgin birth and the son of God on earth and other miracles so important to millions in societes around the world ofcourse they should support her.

What i find disturbing is that the CLC are bringing christianity into disrepute (disclaimer: I'm an atheist). If i looked at this knowing nothing about Christianity, I'd be horrified. And having read about them, i know that they have a misogynistic and homophobic sub-agenda that shouldn't be given he oxygen of publicity. The courts deal with their cases robustly, and yet they bring them. All publicity is good publicity, right? If their god was so all powerful we wouldn't need ventilators. If we want to pursue their god's will, Archie would breathe unaided etc.

That is not to say that i think all christians are like this, i know they aren't. But the more things like this hit the press, the worse it is going to be. I don't know the answer to that either except keep fighting them factually, calmly and using the law.

Sorry, long post. Lastly i think that we do have to have these conversations and I am glad (and long may it last, please) that Mumsnet have taken the view that they are zapping posts rather than deleting the threads. They could be put in classics? there is an awful lot of good information, advice and personal stories in them. We are all going to die. Best case? at home surrounded by our family in our sleep. Worst case? something like this. We must all be clear with ourselves and our next of kin what should happen in the worst cases. DNR or not? A time limit on life support? Taking all measures to preserve any spark of life?

We've had the discussion at Casa Brefugee. And every one of us is agreed about what to do. I may get us all together now to write it down because it is hugely important to all of us that we: donate what is donatable and that we all want a DNR in place and no life support.

Deep sympathy to Archie's parents, family and friends. This is so hard.

@Googleit
People need to realise that the hospital and the courts are not doing what's best for the parent but what is best for the patient. This is the kind of comment that the "army" would come out with. When you actually step back and think about what a hospital is for and the rights of people, the only logical outcome is that you have to do what's best for whoever you're treating. Archie is a person with his own rights, he does not belong to his mother. It's terribly sad what has happened but, even though he is under her care as a minor, she can't prevent his rights being considered. The hospital are not doing these things to be unkind to Hollie but to do what's right for Archie.
Imagine if she'd allowed his life support to be turned off back in April. He could have allowed another child a second chance at life with organ donation, and his mum might be some way, 4 months later, to coming to terms with his passing. Instead, it's been dragged out, Archie is no better and has in fact deteriorated, and Hollie will still have the same sad outcome of the loss of her child and will still have to go through those stages of grief, only 4 months later.

Having worked in ICU, it's a really bizarre environment. Very abnormal things look and become 'normal'. There are different numbers/scales/measures for different things, and it is very easy to think that a low number means 'ok'. For example, carbon dioxide levels are given a number. The number '15' doesn't sound very high, but actually, it is an almost unsurvivable carbon dioxide level. Hollie said last night that Archie was having 40mmol of potassium correction, as if it was a tiny amount, but it is a significant dose of potassium and it can only be given in ICU. For safety, normal wards are only allowed to use premixed bags. The vasopressin sounds really 'little' - just a few units - but it's really potent.

Hollie is trying to learn all this stuff and trying to cling to hope.

I also got the impression that Archie was struggling to maintain his temperature:

• when he was first admitted he needed the bear hugger to keep warm
• Hollie’s statements that he room is kept cool are to justify that he is still quite cold
• she has said that he his “maintaining his temperature” as a positive thing
• in the pictures of him in bed and of the monitor he has several layers of covers
• with the exception of his latest monitor pic, where temp was 36.6 (or thereabouts) most temps have been in the low 36 territory
• that’s low for a child

My ds has a neurological condition.

His temp can drop to 35 when unwell and that's normal for him.

I also think because he's still he would get colder than someone moving around?

I think it's another thing she's focussed on and not sure what it indicates with his health?

@Googleit if you've read all the medical reports and still think that, you're delusional. The child is brain dead with his brain stem crumbling. There is no medicine in the world that could make him better. As a tax payer, I don't support him being kept on life support indefinitely.

All the mother seems to want is to give it some more time on the LSM. He is not in pain despite hysterical comments about necrosis. If he is brain dead which they have said is not certain anyway then what is the problem with respecting mothers wish to leave it for another few months or weeks ?

@Googleit, do you really think his brain is going to heal? As long ago as 31st May the scan showed it was continuing to shrink and was losing fluid, his brain stem was severely damaged, necrotising and herniating through the top of the spinal column, and was getting no blood whatsoever. There is nothing hysterical about the necrosis, it is a simple fact. You know how much damage a few minutes without blood flow does when someone has a stroke, right? Imagine how much damage is done when there is no blood flow for three months.

Do you think it is really morally OK to keep a child who is dead in the semblance of life by pushing air into their poor, damaged lungs, pushing nutrition in although the body can't benefit from it, and pushing all sorts of replacement hormones in because the brain can't produce them? Is it OK to force expert medical staff to do that to the child? Is that a Christian thing to do?

And how long is "a few months"? That's what Ms Dance said she wanted at the outset. She's had four months. How much longer?

I'm also very uncomfortable about the narrative of "the child belongs to the parents and therefore they must make all decisions about them" because, sure, that sounds reasonable. Until you remember how often we see awful things and the shout goes up "where were the authorities? why didn't they take that child away from that environment?" and you realise that, actually, no it is a shit idea.

Children are people, and sure there are some things that parents should decide, but not everything. And we ought to be challenging this every time someone says it in public.

*Where is Archies's advocate in all this? For every interview the parents give, he should be offered the opportunity to put forward the the child's POV

How exactly do you think this could be achieved?

The money the Trust has spent on this would have covered the time the mother asked for. Releasing a life support machine for a possible other person is no excuse.

Its nothing more than money in my opinion plus it is important to them to set tthe precedent for future like cases. To make sure everyone knows this door is definitely closed saving on future costs.

@Googleit, you have a very odd idea of the relative costs of lawyers and running a bed in an ICU, especially for a child needing the level of intervention Archie has needed over the last four months. An ICU bed costs around £1700 per day on its own, and that's before you factor in the costs of drugs, extra nursing, specialist equipment etc etc.

No-one would begrudge a penny of it if there was any benefit at all, but can you point to any realistic benefit to Archie that has been achieved by all this?

Medical evidence can be questioned. for one or even 3 Doctors opinion you will find an equal number with an alternative view with plausble evidence. It doesn't mean they are quacks. Many breakthroughs in science is from questioning the established view.

One of the significant aspects of this case is that not one doctor has been found who has an alternative view on examining Archie and looking at the scans..

I'm finding all the 'she's only doing what any mother would do' comments in the media very distressing. I was in a similar position (different situation but same outcome). I listened to the medical advice, was shown the evidence and had to face up to the outcome. It wasn't what was best for me, it was what was best for my family member. I was treated with kindness and compassion.

I didn't fail them. I did what was right for them. As many people have to do every day. My love was, and is, just as great.

If he is brain dead which they have said is not certain anyway then what is the problem with respecting mothers wish to leave it for another few months or weeks ?

Children are not ventilated and nursed in ICU solely to meet the emotional need of a parent - even a parent in a really desperate situation of emotional need. He is the patient.

This has been an awful thing to watch played out but it has been done right and the mother's rights have been respected to the last decimal place, at the investment of enormous cost and time and effort from many people involved to objectively weigh up everything and to be absolutely certain that the right thing to do in this case is for artificial ventilation to end, with the mother given every single possible opportunity to try someone else, to have the case heard over again, to explore every avenue available in case there are facts or evidence or considerations that have been missed. At this point it's conclusive that there haven't.

B

I feel really sad this morning that they are going to put in an attempt to move him. Imagine being moved when you are so very poorly and at the end of your life. I know he has no awareness but it just seems so cruel. And the irony of tried saying they want to move him so he has dignity when he does from the very same people who put out a statement saying 'we don't believe in the concept of dignity in death!'

Have they actually launched the legal challenge yet? They have until 9 BST to do so otherwise the life support will be turned off at 11.

I can’t see a legal challenge even making it to court unless they have a firm commitment from a hospice who will take him. I would have thought that if there was one they would have come forward by now to confirm the mother’s statement that there is a hospice who want to take him.