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Archie Battersbee - Thread 4

1000 replies

BreadInCaptivity · 03/08/2022 00:09

Previous thread:

Archie Battersbee - Thread 3 http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/inthee_news/4601962-archie-battersbee-thread-3

OP posts:
Isaidnoalready · 04/08/2022 00:48

Well the appeal is going to be lodged (or it already has been) they are pushing for hospice there seems to be an intense need to oppose the hospital on everything now almost like the hospital say its not a good idea so that's what I'm doing I think its gone too far now I support the appeals because we need to be able to hold everyone accountable but enough now it feels like a slow motion car crash

reesewithoutaspoon · 04/08/2022 00:49

Legally the hospital could have withdrawn.
Holly has raised her wish for it to end in a hospice. From Barts statement, it sounds like he is very unstable if even turning him in bed is causing instability.
I don't think holly would believe that. she would just accuse them of refusing out of spite.
By allowing her to appeal this, the court will probably rule that it's not in his best interest to be moved if it's highly likely he could die on the side of a road in the back of an ambulance without family there.
The court may then give a date and time for withdrawal.

Isaidnoalready · 04/08/2022 01:00

I think they are allowing and even encouraging her appeals so that she cannot sue or so that she exhausts her legal avenues in the hopes that she eventually accepts the inevitable this latest round kinda shows she isn't accepting anything

EntertainingandFactual · 04/08/2022 01:01

curiousitygotthebetterofme · 04/08/2022 00:08

So what happens now if the appeal to get him into a hospice is rejected? Does it just go to the high court, court of appeal, Supreme Court and the ECHR all over again? Meanwhile, he just languishes in ICU?

What an awful situation his family are in. It’s just tragic. I really do feel for them.

I really really hope not.

PeloAddict · 04/08/2022 01:13

Moving him to the hospice is definitely not the best thing for him, I think that's the issue. It doesn't matter to him where he is, so it's for her benefit which then goes back to it's not in his best interests. Guess it will be refused

My mum was dying and they couldn't even get her into a side room until a few hours before she went. We were wedged in a ward with the curtains around us. When she died I figured all that mattered was me talking, some music she liked, no pain and an open window

GriseldaPlum · 04/08/2022 03:40

I have a child who is now a grown up woman, who took violent and extended epileptic fits and went into status epilepticus many times. She was born with
a recognised syndrome and severe learning difficulties. No speech. Doubly incontinent. But generally quite a happy soul. We get by. Somehow.

Every time she went into status and was hospitalised, they warned us it was doing more damage to her brain. And that she might lose any abilities that we'd worked hard to help her with. That was a hard pill to swallow.

But as it happened, these fits did not make any change to what she had learned
(in her limited way, obvs) and when we got her back home she was same as ever. So they (the fits) obviously did no significant damage to her brain function.

Having, sort of, been there, sitting for days at a time with a child who is heavily drugged to keep them still and maybe could die . . . . . whilst also wrangling her toddler sister, I cannot imagine being told by doctors that my daughter was
effectively brain stem dead. And doubting them, or taking umbrage.

They have looked after her from birth. I would believe them.
They have nothing to gain or lose. I didn't have to make a choice because she rallied and got better. So I didn't have to deal with a bad outcome.

Had it been a different outcome, I'd have dealt with that also. It would not have been the fault of anyone.

Poor Hollie is being manipulated. She is going to regret all this. I feel so sorry for her that she feels she has to keep on keeping on. Her son is beyond help.
Anybody's help, He's gone and she needs to look inside herself and ignore the
Archie's Army that's keeping her going. And the Christian whatever, just ignore them. Just stop it. He's gone. Archie is gone. It must be a devastating thing for a mother to face. But better to face it alone and accept it than join in with the media circus which will ensue.

Googleit · 04/08/2022 03:54

I'm finding these posts really difficult to read especially the negative comments about the Christian group supporting the mother. Why shouldn't they? The church has a following of millions around the world. A religion that is based on the belief on a virgin birth and the son of God on earth and other miracles so important to millions in societes around the world ofcourse they should support her.

All the mother seems to want is to give it some more time on the LSM. He is not in pain despite hysterical comments about necrosis. If he is brain dead which they have said is not certain anyway then what is the problem with respecting mothers wish to leave it for another few months or weeks ?

As a tax payer i absolutely support the mother and would expect nothing less than her wishes to be respected. If she thought her child was in pain she would not pursue this I am sure.

The money the Trust has spent on this would have covered the time the mother asked for. Releasing a life support machine for a possible other person is no excuse.
Its nothing more than money in my opinion plus it is important to them to set tthe precedent for future like cases. To make sure everyone knows this door is definitely closed saving on future costs.

Medical evidence can be questioned. for one or even 3 Doctors opinion you will find an equal number with an alternative view with plausble evidence. It doesn't mean they are quacks. Many breakthroughs in science is from questioning the established view.

In my opinion the Trust is wrong to push this through.

SunsetandCupcakes · 04/08/2022 04:17

@Googleit

They believe in a all powerful God, if their God wanted Archie to live he wouldn't need man's intervention.

ApolloandDaphne · 04/08/2022 05:29

@Googleit They aren't supporting her in
a Christian way, they are manipulating her when she is grief stricken and unable to think rationally.

marcopront · 04/08/2022 05:49

@Googleit
Don't think if a doctor had a different opinion they would have. One forward and said something by now.

Morph22010 · 04/08/2022 05:51

Quia · 03/08/2022 23:35

So what do you say has gone wrong? There was never going to be a happy ending, because this all stems from the awful tragedy of whatever put Archie in hospital. What different decisions do you say the authorities should have made? Which of the decisions made did not put Archie at the heart of the matter?

mh support for children in this country is pretty woeful. Not sure if this was something that was ever asked for for Archie prior to him doing what he did. When my own child was threatening suicidal we got turned down by cahms and said issues related to previously diagnosed autism so they wouldn’t get involved. Luckily we’ve sorted out the underlying issues with schooling. I don’t know all the details for sure but I’ve read Archie had adhd, I’ve seen referal to him being statemented which i take means he had an ehcp and also that he was out of school for a few years so if this is all true then clearly there were some underlying issues. Based on my own and the many parents I’m aware of through Sen groups he wouldn’t have got adequate help even if asked for so maybe they need to go right back and look at what went wrong early on at the inquest and why he ended up in the situation he was in

marcopront · 04/08/2022 05:58

@Morph22010
I assume the question @Quia asked is about what could have been done differently in the last few months.

Morph22010 · 04/08/2022 06:02

EntertainingandFactual · 04/08/2022 01:01

I really really hope not.

Who is funding the appeals, surely the clc can’t have an infinite pot of money?

EntertainingandFactual · 04/08/2022 06:03

@Googleit

I'm finding these posts really difficult to read especially the negative comments about the Christian group supporting the mother. Why shouldn't they? The church has a following of millions around the world

This particular ‘branch’ of Christianity certainly do not have millions following around the world.

They are an ‘evangelical advocacy group’:

’Christian Concern is the trading name of CCFON Ltd,[1] a not for profit advocacy group[2] described as 'one of the most prominent evangelical organisations in the United Kingdom', reaching a mailing list of more than 43,000 people.[3] Christian Concern seeks to introduce a more conservative Christian voice into law, the media, and government,[4] and is linked to the Christian Legal Centre organisation.[5]’

Morph22010 · 04/08/2022 06:06

marcopront · 04/08/2022 05:58

@Morph22010
I assume the question @Quia asked is about what could have been done differently in the last few months.

I know but ultimately I think the question needs to be asked as part of the inquest what went wrong much earlier on, did it need to get to this point

Purplepatsy · 04/08/2022 06:08

Medical evidence can be questioned. for one or even 3 Doctors opinion you will find an equal number with an alternative view with plausble evidence. It doesn't mean they are quacks. Many breakthroughs in science is from questioning the established view

There are no doctors who can possibly have an alternative view of a decaying brain. The established view, agreed by all his doctors, is that he is technically dead and being kept in his current state by artificial means. The only alternative view is coming from poor Hollie, who has zero medical knowledge and who is unfortunately being manipulated.

drinkingwineoutofamug · 04/08/2022 06:15

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this. Hospices have rules around admissions from hospitals.
Well our local one does.

There are only a limited number of bed available for hospital patients and they have to fit a criteria. Our hospice is mainly for community patients.

Main one is that they have a terminal diagnosis. Secondly that the patient hasn't got long to live. The patient may of said that this was also their preferred place of death.
We don't always get a bed. A) the hospice is full. B) the hospice refuses based on medical opinion.

In Archie's case. He mets neither criteria as he is dead. Sorry but why take a dead person to a hospice to re-die (if that's a word).

Morph22010 · 04/08/2022 06:27

drinkingwineoutofamug · 04/08/2022 06:15

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this. Hospices have rules around admissions from hospitals.
Well our local one does.

There are only a limited number of bed available for hospital patients and they have to fit a criteria. Our hospice is mainly for community patients.

Main one is that they have a terminal diagnosis. Secondly that the patient hasn't got long to live. The patient may of said that this was also their preferred place of death.
We don't always get a bed. A) the hospice is full. B) the hospice refuses based on medical opinion.

In Archie's case. He mets neither criteria as he is dead. Sorry but why take a dead person to a hospice to re-die (if that's a word).

He’s not legally declared dead though so based on that he meets both criteria (not that I’m saying he should be taken)

loislovesstewie · 04/08/2022 06:45

What I find worrying, too, is that some people feel that the actions taken by the parents are seen as the 'gold standard' of how a parent , in fact a mother, should behave in this sort of terribly sad situation. Endless posts on other sites saying 'but she is only doing what any mother would do', and ignoring the fact that countless parents, siblings, adult children and other next-of-kin have to make similar decisions every single day. Are they not also not excellent parents etc? Do they not also have the best interests of their loved one at heart? Perhaps they feel that in ending life support they are behaving with dignity and love and are ending suffering , despite being in distress themselves?
It's bad enough having a sense of guilt despite knowing that the best decision was made given the circumstances, without having the public hold them up to a ridiculous standard based on this debacle.

BettyCake · 04/08/2022 06:46

@Googleit

Christian legal concern have very dubious ethics. They are against gay marriage, gay couples staying at b&b's, gay bakes, against abortion for any reason, being transsexual, wearing religious jewellery. They also call themselves lawyers and barristers when they are not. Lots of information about them online. They are using Archie's case and past cases like this to further their own agenda, which is to say that a beating heart is proof of life and therefore abortion should be banned. They are very sinister.

Also, Archie's brain is rotting (necrotising) down in to his spinal column. I don't know how many doctors you will find to give a second opinion that there's still a chance of recovery for him...it's blatantly obvious to anyone that he's been dead for a while now, requiring a vast array of machines and medications to keep his heart beating, his blood pressure stable, he requires hourly blood tests and blood transfusions to try and keep his body in some sort of stasis and to stop him literally rotting...medicine is amazing to have kept him in this state for the last three months...it doesn't mean he is alive.

passport123 · 04/08/2022 06:52

If you were the director of a hospice would you accept him, and the family?

EntertainingandFactual · 04/08/2022 06:54

passport123 · 04/08/2022 06:52

If you were the director of a hospice would you accept him, and the family?

No.

itsgettingweird · 04/08/2022 06:56

whynotwhatknot · 03/08/2022 23:19

i think the hpsital are being very kind to wait again-poor achie doesnt deserve all this

Kind to who?

The hospital were told over a week ago they could legally withdraw life support as it is t in Archie's best interests to continue.

I agree that they should give mum time to appeal in the democracy sense. But none of this is for Archie now. It's for Ms Dances benefit because she is so broken and in denial - god love her - that she cannot see what the truth is about his condition.

I agree with the poster above that it's a narrative. He did this to himself (intentionally or not only an inquest will tell) and so it's about putting it out there that he wouldn't have wanted to die.

Poor poor woman. I cannot understand her grief. But I cannot believe she's acting correctly or in Archie's best interests.

LizzieSiddal · 04/08/2022 06:59

@Googleit As a tax payer i absolutely support the mother and would expect nothing less than her wishes to be respected. If she thought her child was in pain she would not pursue this I am sure

What happens if every relative of every person on life support decides they don’t want treatment to end? Should all their wishes be respected? In a very short time every single machine in the country would be being used and many nurses and Drs would be giving “treatment” to these people rather than saving other peoples lives.

PupInAPram · 04/08/2022 07:06

@LizzieSiddal yes, a nightmare scenario. Hospitals full of corpses on 'life support' draining every resource from the living desperate for medical care.

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