Archie Battersebee case-thread 2

[whynotwhatknot]

ongoing from previous thread

www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4573803-archie-battersbee-case?page=40

Eventually this whole thing might be coming to an end. A world of money has been spent on his care and all of the appeals. It’s sad but they are wasting their time and everyone else’s money

I’m struggling to articulate this properly, but I am really uncomfortable with the language of ‘being a fighter’, ‘battling an illness’ or ‘never giving up’ that is so often associated with people who have had an accident, been unwell, ‘beaten’ cancer and so on

It’s the language of war, isn’t it?

Culturally we’re very uncomfortable with death, even though it’s inevitable and essentially a part of life. You see it in emergency presentations as well - 95 year old Doris from a care home with dementia comes in with a respiratory infection, and the family wants “everything” done, including CPR.

We’re at the point when caring now equates to pushing back against death, even though it will come to us all.

Looking at the absolute shitstorm that has arisen over the last few months, I wonder if Hollie has regrets.

Archie’s body is clearly distressingly emaciated and continues to be lifeless. Untold people have seen him in a nappy and heard about his bodily functions. Hollie has had numerous media appearances but at the expense of having her past convictions, work and social media posts scrutinised and made public.

The end result will be the same, but there will be a visceral traumatic response from those who are interacting with his body as it is now. I think every poster here would be horrified if they could see Archie now, it’s been a month or so since the pictures of him in a nappy and it sounds as though things are much worse.

Nome of this has helped Hollie to grieve, come to terms with it. She still has to go home (I note she says she hasn’t yet as she can’t face it) and face her memories, thoughts and the inquest. None of the so-called Army will be there and they may have a sense of betrayal when Hollie “stops fighting”.

I'm not sure she has any say on things like that. I have the impression that her function as guardian is limited to protecting his interests with regard to the issues win the litigation.

The Metro has a video of Hollie speaking outside the court saying she has photos of his poo as evidence of his digestive system working.

Good grief.

@nolongersurprised I completely agree, we don’t handle death well as a culture and our expectations of the NHS are often unrealistic.

look for the Hollie Dance kiwi farms thread.
Wow that is a disgusting website full of classiest statements and false information.
I'm glad MN don't allow such statements.

And previous discussion of this website got the first thread deleted.

Thanks, I can see why it’s beyond the Guardian’s remit but I’m just wondering who, in this scenario can do anything where there is a possibility that the parents actions (posting intimate photos) are not in the best interests of the child, especially one who is of an age where his opinion should be taken into account and he’s not able to give it.

Actually this is a daft observation- I could post personal information about my children at any point so I can understand why it happened. Doesn’t make it right necessarily but it’s where we are.

And previous discussion of this website got the first thread deleted.

I think rightly so.

I've looked at it and the focus on the family backstory is irrelevant in terms of the situation at hand.

Archie's best interests now should be the primary focus and fundamentally the question of is he brain stem dead.

Whatever happened in the past does not and should not change/influence anyones decision making.

Re: the Guardian and photos.

We have no idea what's happening behind the scenes, but given H has not released any photos in a similar vein to the one in a nappy, it's possible there has been some intervention to protect Archie's dignity.

'Culturally we’re very uncomfortable with death, even though it’s inevitable and essentially a part of life. You see it in emergency presentations as well - 95 year old Doris from a care home with dementia comes in with a respiratory infection, and the family wants “everything” done, including CPR.

We’re at the point when caring now equates to pushing back against death, even though it will come to us all.'
So true.

I'm definitely the opposite
My mum died last month from pneumonia/sepsis secondary to early onset Alzheimer's. She had stopped eating and drinking and there was no quality of life. I'm so glad that she got pneumonia before the Alzheimer's got to the end, and we said no interventions except keeping her comfortable and they stopped treatment

It seemed ridiculous sitting there with her waiting for her to die like.. she isn't going to get better, we know that, but you can't do anything to just say yes it's time, and euthanasia is an option? I know she wasn't in pain but listening to her breathing and thinking if this was an animal we would put them out of their misery already

Sorry if that sounds harsh it's still raw

Only if it’s in the best interest of the child. The DoH guidance states that ‘The power to consent must be exercised according to the ‘welfare principle’: that the child’s ‘welfare’ or ‘best interests’ must be paramount.’ So it is in effect acting in the child’s best interests, as the power to consent is automatically withdrawn if the action is not the the child’s best interests. It can be overridden by a court and if the child refuses and the parent ‘consents’ it (possibly) cannot be overridden by a court. Neither if which is the case for true consent.

It shouldn’t matter, as everything should be in the child’s best interests. I don’t suppose it does matter, really, if one uses ‘parental consent’ as shorthand for ‘in the best interests of the child’. I’m being pedantic and will shut up about it.

I’m being pedantic and will shut up about it.
I think we are saying similar things anyway. But thank you - I suspect we both like detail so one had to bow out first - very decent of you

www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Dance-Battersbee-v-Barts-NHS-Trust-and-another.pdf

Today's judgement. So incredibly sad for Archie and his family. I also looked at the website mentioned - my god. Some dark corners on the internet.

My youngest brother died 16 years ago after 2 weeks of many operations and eventually life support. He had been stabbed over 16 times and had holes so deep in his body it was hard for the doctors to detect them. They operated about 4 times on him to stitch up the holes and just before his last op he was awake and said he knew this wasn't good. The nurses on icu did absolutely everything they could to save my brother but sadly we had to agree that the treatment they were giving him was invasive and not working. Obviously different to Archie as Alan was in an induced coma so would have muscle spasms and even sat up and coughed at one stage frightening the life out of me. But the nurses assured me he wasn't aware of anything. Within a very short while of removing his life support my darling baby brother died. 💙 The one thing I'll never forget is the peace that came over his face and he looked absolutely beautiful and I'm so glad I had the privilege to be with him and it be in a controlled calm and quiet environment surrounded by people who love him. Yes this is a different case altogether and poor archie has already sadly died but his parents run the risk of his final moments being absolutely chaotic and awful to watch if they make his poor body limp on to the end. Making that awful choice to say enough is enough will give them the time and the peace to say what they need to say, cuddle and kiss him and hold him close. No parent on this earth ever wants to do that to their child but the alternative will be with them forever. It's so so sad x

I see that the instructing solicitors have changed - it was Moore Barlow before Judge Hayden, now its Andrew Storch & Co, We'll never know why the change, but I'm curious as to whether Moore Barlow withdrew and why.

Storch is in fact a firm which, from its website, only does defence work. But I suspect the reality is that the CLC does all the preparatory work.

In many ways I agree. I’ve put pets to sleep (not that it’s comparable) and felt comfort in being to put their peace before my pain. But there’s no foolproof way to ensure its never done for the wrong reasons. So it also can’t (in my opinion) be legal for the right reasons. I think it was common in days of yore (before all the checks and balances) for medics to be a bit heavy handed with the morphine. But the patriarchal ‘doctors know best’ culture also allowed some horrific practices and ghastly abuse, and I don’t want to see that come back. I think laypeople being able to challenge professionals (and powerful institutions in general) is a very important part of being keeping them accountable (although I accept that healthcare staff are human and no one is 100 percent perfect) even if it’s not generally productive. The fact that it’s possible helps to keep malice, criminality and incompetence to the practical minimum.

I do think the medical profession are getting better at quality of life and quality of death, although there is often a long way to go. The planned, gentle deaths some people have been describing here where they are withdrawing life support do sound like shining examples of how death can be peaceful, even in the most turbulent of crises.

And yet most people won’t even say ‘died’.

Storch is in fact a firm which, from its website, only does defence work. But I suspect the reality is that the CLC does all the preparatory work

Do you think the previous legal team withdrew because they were less comfortable with the CLC doing the legal work?

One of those situations where, “We’re paying off you so you need to do exactly what we say”?

The CLC must have vast financial resources

For, not off

i wish hollie would just sit with archie now and stop with the interviews and court

she'll never frgive herself if he goes and she wasnt there it will things a million times worse for her

I'm so very sorry for your loss

The choices families have to make in such situations are absolutely heartbreaking.

I hope you have found comfort in him having a peaceful passing, surrounded by love.

Can't post too much but all worked out well for her.

Thank you to the pp who posted the court decision in full. It was very sad but illuminating reading. I have just read that Archie's mum says he is making medical progress yet this is totally at odds with the medical evidence. The inquest, when the time comes, will be very painful for all involved.